Kalam Chitrakar

Transcript

Interviewer (AGR): What is your name?
Kalam Patua: My name is Kalam Patua. Kalam means ‘brush’,
and patuas are the people who draw pata, coincidentally.

Where are you from?
Kalam Patua: I am from Rampurhat which is an hour and a half journey from Bolpur, Santiniketan.
Rampurhat? That is in Birbhum!
Kalam Patua: Yes, actually my native place is Murshidabad.
Rampurhat is located at the border of. Murshidabad and Birbhum Districts.
My maternal home is in Birbhum; mine is in Murshidabad.
I have moved to Rampurhat. I work in the Post Office.
Oh! So you also have a full-time job?
Kalam Patua: I moved to Rampurhat because of its locational advantages.
I have left my native village and built my own house here.
Was your father also an artist?
Kalam Patua: My father was less involved but my second uncle was.
His name is Baidyanath Patua and my father’s name is. Bholanath Patua.
My father was engaged in other kinds of work;
I rarely saw him engaging in art.
Uncle Baidyanath Patua, who was my teacher,
used to involve me in making clay idols.
Along with this, the drawing of pata would also go on.
I have been doing this at home since my childhood.
Hence, it is difficult to say exactly when I started.
You learnt it from your uncle. What is his name?
Kalam Patua: Baidyanath Patua.
Baidyanath Patua. Was your grandfather also doing the same?
Kalam Patua: Yes. It is our family heritage.
Not all but someone or the other in our family was always engaged in the pata art.
and even wandered around villages to show patas in the past.
It has actually been going on for very long.
Which was your village in Rampurhat?
Kalam Patua: It was in Murshidabad.
Actually, it was in Lalbag where Nawab. Sirajuddaulah’s palace is located;
it was on the western side of the Ganges.
Later on, my great grandfather moved to the village Jhilli.
We lived in Jhilli and I moved to Rampurhat town afterwards.
So you have migrated from Jhilli.. But is everyone else still in the village?
Yes, everyone else in the family is still in the village.
I alone have moved from the village to the city.
Your native village is Jhilli.. How long has your family been living in Jhilli?
I was under the impression that patuas usually do not stay in one place for long.
I don’t really know. But we used to live in Lalbagh in Murshidabad,
and then in Jhilli where our ancestral house is located.
And I moved to Rampurhat to work.
Perhaps in the very early days they used to lead a nomadic life but I am really not aware of it.
I see. But your elders, they might be aware of it.
Yes, I don’t think our family ever earned their living doing that
since we owned land and property, and plots for cultivation as well.
I don’t think it was possible to leave behind all your belongings and migrate to a different place.
If it is true that at a certain point in time, they were nomads and started living like settlers later on,
they might have had to settle down in search of a living.
You people were settled already?. Not travelling much?
-No.
Were they practicing pata painting in the Nawab’s court?
I feel the patas from Murshidabad (as our native place is in Murshidabad),
which are displayed in the Gurusaday Museum,
have a very rich heritage in comparison to the ones that may be found in Birbhum, Burdwan, Medinipur.
I will send you some by email or by some other means.
Then you would be able to understand the difference.
I think the style of the art in Murshidabad and Birbhum is-
the painting style, the stroke of the brushes that you’d find here – is richer
in comparison to the other districts.
But now ‘patua’, as people know them, are those who hail from Medinipur.
Since it is close to Kolkata, they have received more attention and the media also can reach there much faster.
The number of patuas is much less in. Murshidabad and Birbhum in comparison.
In fact, in Medinipur, education is less common among children
while most in Birbhum or Murshidabad are educated;
we have WBCS officers, engineers and doctors.
Most have expressed an interest in education.
This is because it is difficult to earn a livelihood depending on pata.
Yes, I was about to ask you this question.. Apart from you, who is engaged in traditional patachitra,
are there any patuas from your generation practising the same?
There are definitely some but not many as most of them are engaged in studies.
My son is also studying engineering.
He can draw but perhaps one who is studying cannot devote much time to practicing pata.
In fact, he would need to move elsewhere for a job after completing his studies;
hence, he may not be able to come here for this purpose.
In this way, the number of patuas in Murshidabad and Birbhum has now diminished.
But, in Medinipur, all are engaged in pata irrespective of their age;
old and young alike are seriously involved in doing this.
They get invited to programmes within the country as well as from abroad. So, they are able to earn quite well.
But that is not possible in Murshidabad and Birbhum.
When did this start? Did your grandfather solely depend on pata for a livelihood
or was he engaged in cultivation too?
Yes, cultivation too;
based on the fact that we have land and property which has been there since our grandfather’s time.
that’s why we did not need to wander around villages, from door to door.
However, the songs that we composed were intended only for the sake of art.
There are songs that I have perhaps sung as well, but I have never had to go from door to door displaying my patas.
So it was not necessary to do hard labour?
No, we didn’t have to.
Your uncle too had a job?
No, he was not employed. He mainly made idols but he had landed property too.
I didn’t see him moving around villages.
But he also used to draw pata for others;
I also did the same for others. In fact, not all of my relatives were financially well off.
That means you were already settled families, not wandering for a living.
Yes.
Even during your grandfather’s time it was not so.
Yes, since his time, no patua has wandered around for a living.
If you go to the Anthropology Department, you might learn that a hundred years ago there were wandering groups.
My grandfather never told me that our forefathers moved from one place to another.
In fact, his father came there due to his marriage.
Similarly, I have come here for employment.
Our ancestral home is in Jhilli where my elder brother lives.
It is not that we moved from one place to another.
No patua has had to migrate in the last hundred years.
I am 56 years old and I haven’t heard of this happening in the last fifty years.
The information about this might be available in the book Cultural Oscillation by Dr. Binay Bhattacharya
in the discipline of anthropology where it is stated that once there were wandering patuas.
It can be gathered to some extent from that book.
It is possible that nomadic life prevailed long back but we never experienced it.
Hence, their numbers are dwindling now and they are mostly going in for higher studies.
Now people mostly have moved towards education instead of going in for cultivation.
Yes.
-So it has started from your generation itself.
-Yes.
Those who are very poor might be wandering around with their patas; otherwise all are involved in education.
These days narratives on the Ramayana are shown on television as well as on pata,
but the Ramayana aired on television is more popular than that displayed on pata.
This was the reason why pata suffered a setback.
Now there’s both a national and an international market for pata.
Pata is being used as a decorative item in homes.
It has lost its previous meaning as a tool for religious preaching.
But pata is now growing in the present, even though displaying it is not common any more.
Therefore, now it is no longer a source of livelihood because of TV and film.
Yes, it is not used for being performed around villages any longer.
Since pata has an artistic value,
patuas from Medinipur have an advantage.
They can sell more patas, they can exhibit patas in fairs at different places,
workshops are also held, in handicrafts fairs, too, pata has a high demand and good sales.
Their livelihood is thus being sustained, though not too well; however, it is being sustained to some extent.
Then you are doing this simply out of interest!
Yes. In fact, pata has its own heritage and. I feel proud that I was born in a patua family.
Since it has been practiced for so many years, I don’t know exactly for how many years it has been going on.
No one knows.
But the artistic fundamentals that have been nurtured for ages
are the main reason for my interest in carrying on this work.
Even though showing pata in rural areas has no value whatsoever, I have kept on painting patas.
I took the initiative in 1990-92 to revive the Kalighat pata, which had not been in practice since the 1930s,
and it got a good response.
The next question that I would like to ask is does your son also draw pata, as you have said?
Yes, he can draw but let’s see what he can do.
I also want that regardless of whatever he studies, our artistic tradition or artistic trends should be preserved.
It is very precious and important.
How many in Murshidabad and Birbhum are still practicing pata?
Their number has greatly diminished.. I cannot tell exactly how many are around.
There are a few.
In Medinipur, they are in a large number.
There are about 10-12 patuas in Birbhum and the number of patuas in Murshidabad is lesser than that.
In Murshidabad, pata has very rich artistic intricacies/values,
which is mostly drawn in miniature forms;
very beautiful.
Because of that you are trying to keep the art alive?
Yes, it is very important.
It is the traditional heritage of India where so many aspects of folk culture like
painting, dance, and drama affirm both Indian identity as well as ours.
Yes, therefore, all traditional artists must try to keep their identity alive.
It is necessary that all types of art should be preserved as far as possible.
You said that the style of art, meaning the strokes of the art, is different in Medinipur.
What is that difference?
The difference may be observed in the composition, in the manner the brush is used,
meaning the way the brushstrokes are used;
and in colour combinations.
Difference definitely exists between the styles.
If the patas from both the areas are juxtaposed, the difference is clearly visible.
District wise differences are also visible.
One can identify whether the pata is from. Murshidabad, or from Birbhum or Medinipur.
That means pata is recognized by the strokes and lines of the painting?
-Yes, yes.
In fact, the difference is due to the way one learns from one’s teacher.
Each school from where one learns has its unique style.
How about thematic differences?
Yes, the themes are the same.
Since the pata were largely based on the Ramayana, the Mahabharata or Krishna,
they were basically aimed at religious preaching in West. Bengal.
We have changed the themes.
In 1987, a competition on pata was organized by the. Information and Cultural Bureau of the Govt. of West Bengal
for the entire West Bengal.
This was held in Medinipur – in proper Medinipur.
At that time a question was raised on the issue of the survival of artistic skills of this kind
and on ways of restoring them in view of the time constraints faced by people.
There I had suggested that if we want to revive it, the artists themselves needed to think about it;
If people don’t want to listen to songs based on long scrolls –
if the patas were to be used as decorative pieces on the walls that are ten feet or so,
the scroll should be no longer than 8 feet.
The subject matter needed to be changed.
Instead of the stereotyped characters of the. Ramayana like Ram, Sita and, similarly, of Krishna,
matters revolving around various contemporary social issues or disasters,
or any other matter,
could be represented on the patas.
From the Government’s end what could be done was,
rather than through conventional publishing houses,
to engage patua artists in disseminating information.
This could be a people-oriented publicity and it would help
in bringing patachitrakars into the limelight at the same time.
Such an attempt would augment not only their incomes but also help their sustainability.
I have since done patas on the dowry problem, Lalan Fakir, the French Revolution and on Rabindranath Tagore.
This way the pata has switched over from traditional to modern subjects.
You have switched over from mythological to modern themes.
And also to a variety of sizes.. I have made three feet patas.
I have made square ones too.. Even the scrolls, like the square Kalighat ones.
From longer to shorter and square patas have also helped people hang them up on walls.
People can afford these easily.
This is an artistic item that has favoured the survival of the patuas, or rather patas, to an extent.
Hence, this helps the survival of the artists.. Are they getting a good market?
Yes, almost all are sold.
It would earlier be the case that someone who likes patas didn’t have the space at home to put them up on the wall.
Because the walls weren’t high enough.
Today, one can buy three feet or five feet long scroll.
Some may buy an eight feet long scroll.
What was the height of the walls in the earlier days?
It was 25 feet, 30 feet or 40 feet in the earlier days.
At the Gurusaday Museum, there is one such long scroll.
Patuas would have moved with the patas;
they would have shown the smaller ones first
and they would have brought out the longer one on the same theme had someone shown a liking.
The patuas would have asked for a little more rice and money
as it would have taken them longer to sing and show the scroll, and it would have needed more effort.
This was the only remuneration one got for one’s labour.
This was the way pata or scroll was shown.
That is why I supported the idea of making shorter or smaller patas by splitting the longer ones.
Are the old ones still made?
Now, in the present times, no one makes long scrolls.
The long scrolls are made only if one is needed for a museum or if it is ordered or commissioned by anyone.
Otherwise patuas make only smaller patas.
You mentioned the revival of the old Kalighat style that you have adopted.
What is the difference between the Kalighat style and the rest?
Kalighat is a school of painting that originated in the 18th century.
Our ancestors, like my grandfather who used to come to. Kolkata to make idols of deities like Durga or Kali,
used to make small earthen pata depicting the images of deities like Kali or Durga in their leisure time.
These were made for pilgrims visiting Kalighat who would buy these small patas on Shiva, Durga or Kali for worship.
Those were, however, square patas.
Since, there were no calendars in those days, (to know the dates of particular rituals or festivals)
they used to buy those patas for worshipping them at home on their way back.
I don’t how much it was for the collection and appreciation of the artistic value of the patas by the pilgrims,
There was more value in them as objects for worship.
At that time, the British people were around, who had a sharper eye for art compared to us,
and that is why there are Kalighat pata and other patas in museums abroad.
Their influence can be seen in the Kalighat pata;
in the way that a three-dimensional image is created, in terms of light and shadow effects.
this is because the patuas used to draw elongated eyes, as you must have seen in the portraits of Durga.
The Kalighat pata is one such Indian painting where the three dimensional effect is visible,
that cannot be seen in any other Indian painting.. Every other style appears flat.
If you look at them, you will understand the difference.
Here you will find shading of objects and images.
This was because the pilgrims would return to pick it within an hour.
So they would tell the patua, “I will be back within an hour or two.
You keep the pata ready as I need to catch the train.”
The patua had to draw very quickly.. A very special type of paper, was used.
So, it had to be done with only firm single strokes, the work had to be finished very swiftly.
Today, for instance, I had to draw the image of Shiva, so the work had to be completed very fast, within half an hour.
So you have to work really fast.
The special paper which absorbs colour quickly,
It can be understood when seen.
Now many patuas are following my technique in which I have had some success.
It is a good sign that I was able to revive the art when it was almost about to disappear.
Presently, it is blooming like branches of trees laden with fruits and flowers.
You have already told me and I was asking you about the painters of Kalighat.
Were they patuas as well? Did they go there to make idols? – Yes.
It had to be done with only a single stroke; if there were a wrong stroke, it would not have been possible to change it.
The patuas from Murshidabad, Medinipur used to visit Kalighat in Kolkata
largely to make idols as that was the main market for clay idols.
Those who made good idols obviously were much in demand.
In Kalighat, at the patuapara,
it is called as patuapara as all patuas used to live where our present Chief Minister lives),
they used to make idols sitting on the temple premises and draw images of deities with single or double figures
for pilgrims.
You were talking about how the patuas used to live in the patuapara. Where is it located?
The place is located in Kalighat. If you go to Kalighat you will find the patuapara.
At present, there’s no place called patuapara. (scrollpainter’s neighbourhood)
Those who settled there in the patuapara –
and, as I said, we – patuas – occupied the interstitial space between Hindus and Muslims.
and the descendants of these families, despite belonging to various communities, are all Hindus now.
Especially those who married into Hindu families.
These people felt ashamed of their patua identity at the time.
Therefore they adopted the ‘Pal’ surname.
stating that they are Hindus now.
All the patuas of West Bengal had together drafted a letter a long time back.
I have a copy of that letter.. My grandfather had that copy.
They came together to state that “We can no longer stay in this manner
and therefore we want to be recognized as Hindu”.
Then they adopted the ‘Pal’ title, dropping the ‘Patua’ surname.
I came to know this from that letter and, later on, when I visited Kalighat to learn the Kalighat pata-
though that time no one was making Kalighat pata.
It was during 1989-90 that I asked an elderly patua over there about this.
He told me that the young generations who married here felt embarrassed in introducing themselves as ‘patua’
and that is why they changed their surname to “Pal”.
However, you said that whenever anyone asked them for a painting,
patuas would request them to keep their identity secret in those days?
Yes, since our situation is like this,
we have separate graveyards where patuas are buried,
not in the same burial ground that belongs to Muslims.
As in, for a Muslim, a space for burial in the graveward would be given –
This happens with the Sufis also.
Yes, there is no system of cremation amongst us.
We have a separate graveyard.
That is where the patuas are buried.
We are separate from Muslims.
Usually there is hardly any marriage between Patuas and Muslims.
Recently, one or two cases might be found.
It was at the time when I was working with my uncle
when the festival of Durga Puja was going to be held the following morning,
we were in the final stages of our work, and around midnight,
some people were unsure whether it would be finished today,
one of the artists asked my uncle, “Would it be possible for you to finish the job before tomorrow?
Since the “pujas” will start from tomorrow onwards!”
I asked my uncle, “What is the logic behind this?”
He said, “Once the puja starts no one will allow us to touch anything”.
Did it not hurt you?
Yes, I was terribly hurt.
At that time, I was only around sixteen or seventeen years old.
I said, “Why is it so? When I’ve created it, I’ve given birth to it,
I am the father or mother of the idol
and it is almost like my child.
If the child’s kohl gets smudged, won’t the parents fix it?
Or if anything odd is visible for some reason, is it not the father or mother’s duty to take care of it?
Why would I not be allowed to touch it?”
My uncle told me that is how it was.. We were not allowed.
That is the reason behind the patua’s conversion to Islam, especially in Medinipur, where they got converted en masse
and they follow all the rituals and customs of Islam,
while in Birbhum and Murshidabad a little bit of combination of both religions may be found.
Therefore, certain pujas and rituals are observed there.
This is our social condition.
Are you allowed to enter the Kali temple?
Yes, we were allowed to work sitting on the temple premises.
The situation was not so bad at that time.
We used to observe idol worship in our village temple also
and all of us used to participate even in the immersion procession.
In some places, the secretary of the Puja committee was from the Muslim community.
Now the situation is changing; it is gradually worsening.
Earlier, the bonding was different, especially in our area –
Both Hindus and Muslims would invite each other to all types of festivals and it is still being maintained.
That practicce is still there.
What about Kalighat?
I can’t say anything about Kalighat.
I didn’t enter the temple, since. I don’t practice any religion.
It does not matter much to me whether it is a temple or a mosque.
I may visit occasionally.
Even today, lower caste Hindus are not allowed to enter the temple premises.
I know about one such village from where one of my students used to come.
There they asked for contributions from people belonging to the lower caste for the construction of a temple;
but when they asked to be allowed to enter the temple, it was denied.
They are still barred from entering the temple and also not allowed at any offerings.
It is still in practice.
That means the system remains the same in spite of income or education. You don’t mind this?
Of course, I feel hurt.
But you still paint?
If not for the images, but for the idols –
participation in the worship aside –
-in fact, we might not be allowed to go too close to the idols of goddesses in pandals
in some places,
whereas, in some places we are allowed to.
This means discrimination still exists.
Yes, it is still in practice mainly in the rural areas.
Perhaps, it has decreased in the urban areas.
However, the issue of polluting contact or touch does not exist anymore.
Till the last generation, it did.. Now, its far lesser in comparison.
Is there any pata which is your specialty?
I have done scrolls with new themes;
similarly, I have added some of my new ideas and thoughts, observations on day to day life on the pata also.
This is because, patas began with the images of gods and goddess in the case of Kalighat.
But themes like “Babu/Bibi” followed by the incident of “Elokeshi-Nabin” began to be included later on.
It keeps changing over time.
When I started out, I began by copying many old patas and I need to do that even now.
I usually adopt my own style and my own thinkin that is very modern and probably because of that
my paintings were able to reach the. Victoria and Albert Museum in London.
I have also organized exhibitions of my own paintings.
My paintings have travelled to different museums in the world –
National Museum at Liverpool,
the Museum of Civilization in Canada,
ISKCON’s museum in Belgium,
Museum of Sacred Art,
the National Gallery of Modern Art in Delhi,
and a number of places.
People seem to like my style and thoughts and maybe it has become acceptable.
You also travel a lot?
Yes.
You also get invitations from different places?
No. Not so lucky to visit all the places.
I have only been to the USA and Canada.
I got another chance after that.
But I couldn’t avail the opportunity because of the worldwide economic recession at the time.
However, I have been to Australia and also to a number of museums for work.
You have been to Australia; so did you collaborate with any folk artists there?
No. It did not happen.
But I have seen them in the. National Crafts Museum in Delhi,
of which Dr. Jyotindra Jain was the Director at that time.
Incidentally, I must tell you that Dr. Jyotindra has curated all my shows there.
This time an exhibition will be held in Kochi where an exhibition of my paintings will also be held.
I have seen the late Janagar Shimsham, an early painter, working with Aboriginal Australians.
Although I was not involved in it, I have seen it happen.
I have heard that some people have stopped painting in places due to financiall constraints,
but especially those who have converted to (puritan) Islam are not doing it anymore?
It is possible that some people change and become very rigid.
I don’t know how some get brainwashed.
They think, ‘What I used to be in the past and what am I now’,
and this feeling leads them totry to obstruct others as well.
This is just stupidity, nothing else.
This is just religious orthodoxy, just simple stupidity.
Like azaan, which has a melodious tune, and is a song sung every day, this is also a song.
They don’t make idols, as is their custom.
But they draw images of flowers, creepers or leaves.
I think new converts to a religion think of themselves to be greater than older believers.
They end up engaging more in such activities.
Patuas who think of themselves as puritan Muslims, consider themselves above both of these sects.
These are the ones who turn against painting and protest the most.
this is just a hypocritical effort to appease and to increase their acceptability in that particular group.
This means that if they are fully converted, then this mixed state that you mentioned,
between Hindus and Muslims, will cease to exist, right?
Yes, maybe for some people, but no.. It cannot end. It cannot ever leave their psyche –
since, those who come to decorate the puja pandals are Muslims at present.
-Oh!
They still have a deep-seated attachment to these rituals,
because despite having converted, their feelings emerge from their origins.
These people are not Muslims like the ones who came from Arabia.
In fact, those who were castigated as lower castes were the ones who were eventually converted.
This happened because of social oppression by the Brahmins.
Just a while back, I saw a post on Facebook in which a. Brahmin was treading across several shudras
lying on the floor on a religious occasion.
This might be happening either because of the disciples’ obligations to their spiritual leader
or in order to be released from sufferings caused by their sins.
But if anyone among them was my elder brother or father, I would have been definitely angry.
If we think logically, the question arises why should one man walk over others?
I am a rational person; I cannot accept this.
You said that when television was introduced, the traditional purpose of a patua, which was to entertain,
through religious themes, diminished to a great extent.
But nowadays they don’t watch TV either.
Would you like to add anything new to pata -. Do you think their survival is at stake?
I think it is not at all profitable to show or sell them in rural areas.
This has significantly reduced in the rural areas as no one has the time to see pata by putting their mobiles away.
Everyone is in line for devolving into our hunch-backed ancestors, myself included.
I myself get so many work-related messages on my mobile that I am compelled to use it.
Everyone in the villages belonging to my age group, that is, above fifty, are using the mobile phone.
Hence, I feel that there is no further scope for displaying pata in rural areas.
Pata needs to be modified in alternative modes as an artistic product.
So are you thinking of bringing in change in that?
You have pioneered the transformation of the image from pata (old one on as earthen pata) to a wall hanging.
How are you planning to adapt to change at this age?
Yes, there must be a rethinking on the best possible way of enhancing its visual appeal.
It is not the same pata anymore, now it has no further use or creative space in rural areas;
it’s totally urbanized now and, therefore,
The pata has to be made saleable like any other commodity.
Modern art is an example. This might be like those images.
As I learnt about the aboriginals of Australia,
the price of their paintings is much higher than that of modern art.
Yes. As you would have seen, they have incorporated modern objects in their art.
But in the case of paintings, the price is very high. We tourists cannot afford them.
So what they do is they paint on T-shirts.
Yes, nowadays patuas also paint on T-shirts, umbrellas, hand fans, saris, etc.
Like souvenirs?
Yes, scarves even. They are painting on everything.
I have also received offers for making them but I don’t do it as my paintings are sent to a number of places.
Hence, painting on other objects in which I have to invest my time and which
after some days, will get spoilt, is not my choice.
But for those whose only means of livelihood is this need to do it; they need to do it for their survival.
If you go in for copyright for your paintings?
There are problems in obtaining a copyright.. My paintings have often been copied.
I had spoken about it to Dr. Jyotindra, who said that copyright is possible for any writing or for poetry
where every line, full stop or commas can be accounted for.. Copyright is best suited for written media like books.
Suppose I make a painting based on my thoughts or ideas,
someone else might also draw a similar one with a little addition or alteration.
In that case, it can’t be called a copy.
But for aboriginal paintings it has happened.
Has it, now?
Yes, this happened. Suppose one cannot afford to buy an original painting of aboriginals.
But a copy of the same painting is available as a souvenir costing around ten dollars.
Yes, it can be done in this manner.
But that is not that practice here.
It has been done basically for the purpose of preservation.
If there is a modern artist with a good body of work,
starts copying aboriginal artwork;
and his copies sell at prices at par with that of aboriginal art,
To prevent this, it has been decreed that aboriginal art for profit cannot be done by anyone else.
Similarly, it must be mandated that patachitra should be done by the patuas alone,
Kalighat and other pata forms, can only be made by patuas,
and that someone in Hyderabad wouldn’t be allowed to make traditional pata artwork.
But how do you do this at an individual level?. You are a collective. Copy is only for individual works.
Yes, it is difficult.
Say, someone were to draw a ‘Babu pata’ and another person were to draw a Babu pata with a hookah in
one hand and a flower in the other.
That little difference will make it a different painting altogether.
I think it cannot be claimed that the ‘Babu pata’ was exactly copied in this case.
So the individual claim for copyright cannot be obtained, because it is a collective.
Yes, I also feel that.
I had asked Dr. Jyotindra –
he also told me that, for example, one could copy someone’s poem
and publish it in their name,
in that situation it is essential to have a copyright for that reason.
In the case of a poem, a word, or a letter can be copied exactly.
But, in the case of a painting, one could change the hand’s position; hence, you cannot call it a copy.
Therefore I think this is a difficult issue.
What can be done is that as patuas are painting a particular kind of image,
no other community should be allowed to do the same.
Similarly, Madhubani painting should be done only by the community who has been traditionally involved with it.
The same should hold for aboriginals.
This, I feel, can be an alternative to copyright; otherwise the claim for copyright is not possible.
If you could tell us something about your paintings which are special,
they could be downloaded from your website.
Yes, I will send them.
There are some paintings which are acclaimed worldwide. I could send you those.
There are some, which cannot be explained, unless I show them myself.
For example, there is a painting on intolerance which shows a mirror with a reflection and a man fighting with his own shadow.
It is just like a mirror showing that we are fighting with one other.
It signifies the conflict between. Hindu and Muslims in recent times,
in the political space.
This is because we were the same in the past
as I told you already –
because the Muslims who live here are all converted Muslims.
They are still Hindu in their mindset
and this is why they would participate in festivals or pujas.
Their participation in idol immersion would possibly be banned in the coming days.
Such war/conflict is a shadow war, the mirror’s reflection.
It’s just a mirror image of the present politico-social system which, like a vulture,
is manipulating the in-fighting between us for its vested interests.
It shows a vulture on top of a tiger.
The tiger itself symbolizes intolerance.
Because if we are defeated, the tiger will eat us and it will kill us even if we win.
Fighting always takes place in which people from both sides are killed, like it happens during riots.
These are some of the few works of mine.
Can you send us some of those as well?
Yes, I can do that.
Then there’s my representation of woman power,
which is slightly different.
She has a lot of tigers on her body, which depicts a woman’s strength.
I intended to show that women are doing all sorts of chores just like my mother, daughters, who are
involved in domestic duties,
take care of children, give birth
work in the office, cook.
The truth of the matter is :
I return from the office, wash my hands, and eat.
But when a woman returns from work, she has to cook her own meal.
My painting was created to show my respect to them for their immense strength.
I will send you these paintings.
After reviving this art form,
through changes in the subject matter from time to time,. I have reached a space where I can compose new scrolls.
I have a few scrolls which I had painted earlier.
I will send them all. There are paintings on Rabindranath Tagore,
and also probably on the dowry system.
What about your writing of songs?
I have written many songs.
But those also need to be recorded at some point, unless you have some you can send us?
There might be a few. I’ll send you the recordings.
I have never sung other than for this art.
I’ve composed songs and I can also sing a little.
I even have to, in various places.
Many thanks to you. If you could trace the pata in a chronological order, the people watching the video would be able to situate it in terms of history.
You gave a lot of your time with us, after such a long workshop.
If you could situate the patas through history in a chronological order for the viewers,
They were usually drawn on the Kalighat temple’s grounds.
The image of Shiva-Durga is a very popular theme not only in scrolls but also in the Kalighat painting.
There is a scroll with a very humorous story.
It shows that Durga’s bangles have broken
and she asked Shiva for new ones.
But Shiva was drunk with bhang, and unemployed as well.
He told her to go to her father’s house and get them from him.
I don’t have any money for bangles.
Both husband and wife quarrel over this issue.
As a consequence, Durga left with her child for her father’s place.
In this story, Shiv-Durga are clearly a god-goddess,
But in the eyes of a folk artist,
they are just like his/her neighbours.
And his/her poor neighbor’s condition that is similar to that of Shiva-Durga.
The situation is such for the artists that they have financial scarcity, the husband and wife quarrel,
And the wife takes the child and leaves the house for her paternal abode.
Coming back to the story,
While walking down the road, Narada met her
and asked her, ‘Auntie, where are you going?’
Durga replied, ‘Your uncle is unable to buy me bangles;
hence I am going to my parental home leaving everything behind’
Narada said, ‘Hold on. I’m going to take care of everything’,
and he went over to Shiva.
Shiva asked, ‘Where are your aunt and the others?. She got angry at me and left. Get them back here.’
Narada said, ‘She is not ready to come back, but you can meet her.’
‘How?’, asked Shiva.
‘Disguise yourself as a tiger’, Narada suggested.
Many times in a state of crisis, common sense does not prevail.
So, Shiva took the guise of a tiger very quickly and went forward.
On seeing the tiger, Durga told her kids,
‘What are you afraid of?
We now have a vehicle to go to your uncle’s place (my paternal home).’
As mythologically, the tiger is her verhicle.
When she proceeded to mount the tiger,. Shiva, disguised as the tiger, ran away.
Shiva then told Narada, ‘You gave me a great suggestion, nephew!
(sarcastically) Your aunt was just about to climb on my back’.
Narada then suggested that he adopt the guise of a bangle-seller.
On seeing the seller, Durga came out of the house,
and the seller made her wear conch-shell bangles while chanting mantras.
Durga, then, asked about the price of those bangles.
Shiva, the conch bangle-seller, replied, ‘No payment is necessary. I just want to stay over here tonight.’
Durga grew furious and cursed him.. But none of the curses seemed to work.
Then, she began to meditate and figured out that it was Shiva who was present there.
In disguise.
And this is how they got united again.
This is a very humorous picture.
This is a traditional painting, but it has been composed by me.
This is not old, the theme and compsition are all mine
That was traditional paper; this one is on a better-quality paper as these days samples are being sent to museums.
They are dancing. This is a modern piece?
Yes.
What is this about?
This is on the Babu culture,
about their drinking habits and visits to dancers.
It is because they had started imitating the English.
How do you market your artwork?
How do you sell your paintings?
When I am talking one on one to my customers,
the way I am talking directly to you right now,
I have to estimate the maximum price s/he can afford.
Even then, it involves so much bargaining that it becomes difficult to deal with.
On the other hand, when the same pictures that are sent to the gallery,
things that I might have failed to sell for Rs. 10-15,000
are sold at Rs.60,000 without any bargaining,
which is divided equally between them and me.
They give you 50 percent? – Yes, they do.
That’s nice! -Yes, it is.
So how much do you earn in a year?
Not to pry, of course.
-No no, that’s alright.
Annually,
I have a regular job; so, I do this as a pastime.
Even then, I earn about 3-5 lakhs per annum.
As everything directly comes to my bank account, I have to pay taxes.
If you had painted full-time, would that have been sufficient to maintain your family?
With only painting, yes. I would have been able to devote 8 hours for this then and that might have been sufficient.
That’s right, but you are very well known –
Yes, but it’s not this way for everyone. It is difficult.
You have networks, how important is that?
Networks are important.
Also, maybe because I have a job,
I have been able to set and fix the prices for my paintings and have established a market.
Had this not been the case,
what I am selling at Rs 10-15,000 now
I might have had to sell at 5000 or 4000 or even 3000.
Did your networking start from the time when you held the workshop in 1987?
Yes, around 1987-1992.
If I hadn’t joined the job after 1992, there wouldn’t have been any problem.
I could have focused only on painting and it could have been better.
I couldn’t really focus on it because of my job.
But I could also support my art because I had a job.
Who, in your network, does the marketing?
Gallery owners, museum owners?
Like I said, mostly gallery owners.
Mostly gallery owners.
There are also middlemen.
Some of them exploit us a lot,
while others also respect the artist.
I know one or two of the latter kind who sell the pictures on my behalf.
Do NGOs support you?
No, I haven’t received any help from them.
I haven’t received any help from any NGO.
One or two women from Delhi,
Minhaj Majumdar, an ex-journalist, for instance –
she arranges the sale of a few pieces at times.
She has also arranged for the exhibition of a few pieces in Australia over the last one or two years.
She is very reliable and keeps a minimum margin on sales.
For instance, a profit of Rs. 20,000 on a picture that sells for Rs. 80,000 or Rs. 1 lakh.
Unlike other places that might take away half of the price,
that doesn’t happen in her case.
Her name is Minhaj Majumdar.
And the government doesn’t help you either?
No, they don’t. For instance, the Victoria Albert Museum-
Help from Didi?
No, nothing as such.
But I heard that Biswa Bangla is doing something?
Yes, they are doing something.
But I am not in touch with them.
Once I had given them two or three pictures.
The payment came late, but it did come.
But you won’t get that kind of a price there.
No.
How did you get to know the gallery owners?
Once I told Dr. Jyotindra Jain when I was painting early on,
that I would like to have an exhibition for modern artists.
Nothing as good happens for patuas usually.
He said that if I can do good work, it can be done.
Then I started with my modern works, beginning with 9/11.
I showed it to him and he was happy.
After I had made many such paintings,
he took me to a gallery.
While in the car, he said, that if this gallery agrees, it would be great, else we’ll start from abroad.
He was very confident about my work.
He was very happy with my work.
There’s a gallery there in the New Friends Colony.
He went there, and, then, the exhibition took place there eventually.
All my paintings got sold even before the opening – this was in 2004.
That venue was called Gallery Space and was run by Renu Modi.
Then there was a second exhibition and a few more here and there;
all went well.
Maybe they were not as successful as the first one, but, nonetheless, they went well.
But this is only for famous artists, right?. The unknown ones do not get such an opportunity.
Yes. If Dr. Jyotindra Jain hadn’t been there,
I couldn’t have approached them for an exhibition all by myself.
I wouldn’t have been that successful.
So, their role is very important? -Yes.
What if you make your own website?
I haven’t done that, but recently I have sold my paintings on WhatsApp and Facebook as well.
Really?
Yes. For instance, if I upload something on Facebook these days,
somebody asks me the price.
Two such instances have occurred.
If I said that the price was Rs. 80,000 or Rs. 60,000, they agreed to that, and there was no bargaining.
So that holds a future? – Yes
Because then people from overseas can buy them. – Yes. Kalam Patua: Where are you from?
I am from Rampurhat which is an hour and a half journey from Bolpur, Santiniketan.
Rampurhat? That is in Birbhum!
Yes, actually my native place is Murshidabad.
Rampurhat is located at the border of. Murshidabad and Birbhum Districts.
My maternal home is in Birbhum; mine is in Murshidabad.
I have moved to Rampurhat. I work in the Post Office.
Oh! So you also have a full-time job?
I moved to Rampurhat because of its locational advantages.
I have left my native village and built my own house here.
Was your father also an artist?
My father was less involved but my second uncle was.
His name is Baidyanath Patua and my father’s name is. Bholanath Patua.
My father was engaged in other kinds of work;
I rarely saw him engaging in art.
Uncle Baidyanath Patua, who was my teacher,
used to involve me in making clay idols.
Along with this, the drawing of pata would also go on.
I have been doing this at home since my childhood.
Hence, it is difficult to say exactly when I started.
You learnt it from your uncle. What is his name?
Baidyanath Patua.
Baidyanath Patua. Was your grandfather also doing the same?
Yes. It is our family heritage.
Not all but someone or the other in our family was always engaged in the pata art.
and even wandered around villages to show patas in the past.
It has actually been going on for very long.
Which was your village in Rampurhat?
It was in Murshidabad.
Actually, it was in Lalbag where Nawab. Sirajuddaulah’s palace is located;
it was on the western side of the Ganges.
Later on, my great grandfather moved to the village Jhilli.
We lived in Jhilli and I moved to Rampurhat town afterwards.
So you have migrated from Jhilli.. But is everyone else still in the village?
Yes, everyone else in the family is still in the village.
I alone have moved from the village to the city.
Your native village is Jhilli.. How long has your family been living in Jhilli?
I was under the impression that patuas usually do not stay in one place for long.
I don’t really know. But we used to live in Lalbagh in Murshidabad,
and then in Jhilli where our ancestral house is located.
And I moved to Rampurhat to work.
Perhaps in the very early days they used to lead a nomadic life but I am really not aware of it.
I see. But your elders, they might be aware of it.
Yes, I don’t think our family ever earned their living doing that
since we owned land and property, and plots for cultivation as well.
I don’t think it was possible to leave behind all your belongings and migrate to a different place.
If it is true that at a certain point in time, they were nomads and started living like settlers later on,
they might have had to settle down in search of a living.
You people were settled already?. Not travelling much?
-No.
Were they practicing pata painting in the Nawab’s court?
I feel the patas from Murshidabad (as our native place is in Murshidabad),
which are displayed in the Gurusaday Museum,
have a very rich heritage in comparison to the ones that may be found in Birbhum, Burdwan, Medinipur.
I will send you some by email or by some other means.
Then you would be able to understand the difference.
I think the style of the art in Murshidabad and Birbhum is-
the painting style, the stroke of the brushes that you’d find here – is richer
in comparison to the other districts.
But now ‘patua’, as people know them, are those who hail from Medinipur.
Since it is close to Kolkata, they have received more attention and the media also can reach there much faster.
The number of patuas is much less in. Murshidabad and Birbhum in comparison.
In fact, in Medinipur, education is less common among children
while most in Birbhum or Murshidabad are educated;
we have WBCS officers, engineers and doctors.
Most have expressed an interest in education.
This is because it is difficult to earn a livelihood depending on pata.
Yes, I was about to ask you this question.. Apart from you, who is engaged in traditional patachitra,
are there any patuas from your generation practising the same?
There are definitely some but not many as most of them are engaged in studies.
My son is also studying engineering.
He can draw but perhaps one who is studying cannot devote much time to practicing pata.
In fact, he would need to move elsewhere for a job after completing his studies;
hence, he may not be able to come here for this purpose.
In this way, the number of patuas in Murshidabad and Birbhum has now diminished.
But, in Medinipur, all are engaged in pata irrespective of their age;
old and young alike are seriously involved in doing this.
They get invited to programmes within the country as well as from abroad. So, they are able to earn quite well.
But that is not possible in Murshidabad and Birbhum.
When did this start? Did your grandfather solely depend on pata for a livelihood
or was he engaged in cultivation too?
Yes, cultivation too;
based on the fact that we have land and property which has been there since our grandfather’s time.
that’s why we did not need to wander around villages, from door to door.
However, the songs that we composed were intended only for the sake of art.
There are songs that I have perhaps sung as well, but I have never had to go from door to door displaying my patas.
So it was not necessary to do hard labour?
No, we didn’t have to.
Your uncle too had a job?
No, he was not employed. He mainly made idols but he had landed property too.
I didn’t see him moving around villages.
But he also used to draw pata for others;
I also did the same for others. In fact, not all of my relatives were financially well off.
That means you were already settled families, not wandering for a living.
Yes.
Even during your grandfather’s time it was not so.
Yes, since his time, no patua has wandered around for a living.
If you go to the Anthropology Department, you might learn that a hundred years ago there were wandering groups.
My grandfather never told me that our forefathers moved from one place to another.
In fact, his father came there due to his marriage.
Similarly, I have come here for employment.
Our ancestral home is in Jhilli where my elder brother lives.
It is not that we moved from one place to another.
No patua has had to migrate in the last hundred years.
I am 56 years old and I haven’t heard of this happening in the last fifty years.
The information about this might be available in the book Cultural Oscillation by Dr. Binay Bhattacharya
in the discipline of anthropology where it is stated that once there were wandering patuas.
It can be gathered to some extent from that book.
It is possible that nomadic life prevailed long back but we never experienced it.
Hence, their numbers are dwindling now and they are mostly going in for higher studies.
Now people mostly have moved towards education instead of going in for cultivation.
Yes.
-So it has started from your generation itself.
-Yes.
Those who are very poor might be wandering around with their patas; otherwise all are involved in education.
These days narratives on the Ramayana are shown on television as well as on pata,
but the Ramayana aired on television is more popular than that displayed on pata.
This was the reason why pata suffered a setback.
Now there’s both a national and an international market for pata.
Pata is being used as a decorative item in homes.
It has lost its previous meaning as a tool for religious preaching.
But pata is now growing in the present, even though displaying it is not common any more.
Therefore, now it is no longer a source of livelihood because of TV and film.
Yes, it is not used for being performed around villages any longer.
Since pata has an artistic value,
patuas from Medinipur have an advantage.
They can sell more patas, they can exhibit patas in fairs at different places,
workshops are also held, in handicrafts fairs, too, pata has a high demand and good sales.
Their livelihood is thus being sustained, though not too well; however, it is being sustained to some extent.
Then you are doing this simply out of interest!
Yes. In fact, pata has its own heritage and. I feel proud that I was born in a patua family.
Since it has been practiced for so many years, I don’t know exactly for how many years it has been going on.
No one knows.
But the artistic fundamentals that have been nurtured for ages
are the main reason for my interest in carrying on this work.
Even though showing pata in rural areas has no value whatsoever, I have kept on painting patas.
I took the initiative in 1990-92 to revive the Kalighat pata, which had not been in practice since the 1930s,
and it got a good response.
The next question that I would like to ask is does your son also draw pata, as you have said?
Yes, he can draw but let’s see what he can do.
I also want that regardless of whatever he studies, our artistic tradition or artistic trends should be preserved.
It is very precious and important.
How many in Murshidabad and Birbhum are still practicing pata?
Their number has greatly diminished.. I cannot tell exactly how many are around.
There are a few.
In Medinipur, they are in a large number.
There are about 10-12 patuas in Birbhum and the number of patuas in Murshidabad is lesser than that.
In Murshidabad, pata has very rich artistic intricacies/values,
which is mostly drawn in miniature forms;
very beautiful.
Because of that you are trying to keep the art alive?
Yes, it is very important.
It is the traditional heritage of India where so many aspects of folk culture like
painting, dance, and drama affirm both Indian identity as well as ours.
Yes, therefore, all traditional artists must try to keep their identity alive.
It is necessary that all types of art should be preserved as far as possible.
You said that the style of art, meaning the strokes of the art, is different in Medinipur.
What is that difference?
The difference may be observed in the composition, in the manner the brush is used,
meaning the way the brushstrokes are used;
and in colour combinations.
Difference definitely exists between the styles.
If the patas from both the areas are juxtaposed, the difference is clearly visible.
District wise differences are also visible.
One can identify whether the pata is from. Murshidabad, or from Birbhum or Medinipur.
That means pata is recognized by the strokes and lines of the painting?
-Yes, yes.
In fact, the difference is due to the way one learns from one’s teacher.
Each school from where one learns has its unique style.
How about thematic differences?
Yes, the themes are the same.
Since the pata were largely based on the Ramayana, the Mahabharata or Krishna,
they were basically aimed at religious preaching in West. Bengal.
We have changed the themes.
In 1987, a competition on pata was organized by the. Information and Cultural Bureau of the Govt. of West Bengal
for the entire West Bengal.
This was held in Medinipur – in proper Medinipur.
At that time a question was raised on the issue of the survival of artistic skills of this kind
and on ways of restoring them in view of the time constraints faced by people.
There I had suggested that if we want to revive it, the artists themselves needed to think about it;
If people don’t want to listen to songs based on long scrolls –
if the patas were to be used as decorative pieces on the walls that are ten feet or so,
the scroll should be no longer than 8 feet.
The subject matter needed to be changed.
Instead of the stereotyped characters of the. Ramayana like Ram, Sita and, similarly, of Krishna,
matters revolving around various contemporary social issues or disasters,
or any other matter,
could be represented on the patas.
From the Government’s end what could be done was,
rather than through conventional publishing houses,
to engage patua artists in disseminating information.
This could be a people-oriented publicity and it would help
in bringing patachitrakars into the limelight at the same time.
Such an attempt would augment not only their incomes but also help their sustainability.
I have since done patas on the dowry problem, Lalan Fakir, the French Revolution and on Rabindranath Tagore.
This way the pata has switched over from traditional to modern subjects.
You have switched over from mythological to modern themes.
And also to a variety of sizes.. I have made three feet patas.
I have made square ones too.. Even the scrolls, like the square Kalighat ones.
From longer to shorter and square patas have also helped people hang them up on walls.
People can afford these easily.
This is an artistic item that has favoured the survival of the patuas, or rather patas, to an extent.
Hence, this helps the survival of the artists.. Are they getting a good market?
Yes, almost all are sold.
It would earlier be the case that someone who likes patas didn’t have the space at home to put them up on the wall.
Because the walls weren’t high enough.
Today, one can buy three feet or five feet long scroll.
Some may buy an eight feet long scroll.
What was the height of the walls in the earlier days?
It was 25 feet, 30 feet or 40 feet in the earlier days.
At the Gurusaday Museum, there is one such long scroll.
Patuas would have moved with the patas;
they would have shown the smaller ones first
and they would have brought out the longer one on the same theme had someone shown a liking.
The patuas would have asked for a little more rice and money
as it would have taken them longer to sing and show the scroll, and it would have needed more effort.
This was the only remuneration one got for one’s labour.
This was the way pata or scroll was shown.
That is why I supported the idea of making shorter or smaller patas by splitting the longer ones.
Are the old ones still made?
Now, in the present times, no one makes long scrolls.
The long scrolls are made only if one is needed for a museum or if it is ordered or commissioned by anyone.
Otherwise patuas make only smaller patas.
You mentioned the revival of the old Kalighat style that you have adopted.
What is the difference between the Kalighat style and the rest?
Kalighat is a school of painting that originated in the 18th century.
Our ancestors, like my grandfather who used to come to. Kolkata to make idols of deities like Durga or Kali,
used to make small earthen pata depicting the images of deities like Kali or Durga in their leisure time.
These were made for pilgrims visiting Kalighat who would buy these small patas on Shiva, Durga or Kali for worship.
Those were, however, square patas.
Since, there were no calendars in those days, (to know the dates of particular rituals or festivals)
they used to buy those patas for worshipping them at home on their way back.
I don’t how much it was for the collection and appreciation of the artistic value of the patas by the pilgrims,
There was more value in them as objects for worship.
At that time, the British people were around, who had a sharper eye for art compared to us,
and that is why there are Kalighat pata and other patas in museums abroad.
Their influence can be seen in the Kalighat pata;
in the way that a three-dimensional image is created, in terms of light and shadow effects.
this is because the patuas used to draw elongated eyes, as you must have seen in the portraits of Durga.
The Kalighat pata is one such Indian painting where the three dimensional effect is visible,
that cannot be seen in any other Indian painting.. Every other style appears flat.
If you look at them, you will understand the difference.
Here you will find shading of objects and images.
This was because the pilgrims would return to pick it within an hour.
So they would tell the patua, “I will be back within an hour or two.
You keep the pata ready as I need to catch the train.”
The patua had to draw very quickly.. A very special type of paper, was used.
So, it had to be done with only firm single strokes, the work had to be finished very swiftly.
Today, for instance, I had to draw the image of Shiva, so the work had to be completed very fast, within half an hour.
So you have to work really fast.
The special paper which absorbs colour quickly,
It can be understood when seen.
Now many patuas are following my technique in which I have had some success.
It is a good sign that I was able to revive the art when it was almost about to disappear.
Presently, it is blooming like branches of trees laden with fruits and flowers.
You have already told me and I was asking you about the painters of Kalighat.
Were they patuas as well? Did they go there to make idols? – Yes.
It had to be done with only a single stroke; if there were a wrong stroke, it would not have been possible to change it.
The patuas from Murshidabad, Medinipur used to visit Kalighat in Kolkata
largely to make idols as that was the main market for clay idols.
Those who made good idols obviously were much in demand.
In Kalighat, at the patuapara,
it is called as patuapara as all patuas used to live where our present Chief Minister lives),
they used to make idols sitting on the temple premises and draw images of deities with single or double figures
for pilgrims.
You were talking about how the patuas used to live in the patuapara. Where is it located?
The place is located in Kalighat. If you go to Kalighat you will find the patuapara.
At present, there’s no place called patuapara. (scrollpainter’s neighbourhood)
Those who settled there in the patuapara –
and, as I said, we – patuas – occupied the interstitial space between Hindus and Muslims.
and the descendants of these families, despite belonging to various communities, are all Hindus now.
Especially those who married into Hindu families.
These people felt ashamed of their patua identity at the time.
Therefore they adopted the ‘Pal’ surname.
stating that they are Hindus now.
All the patuas of West Bengal had together drafted a letter a long time back.
I have a copy of that letter.. My grandfather had that copy.
They came together to state that “We can no longer stay in this manner
and therefore we want to be recognized as Hindu”.
Then they adopted the ‘Pal’ title, dropping the ‘Patua’ surname.
I came to know this from that letter and, later on, when I visited Kalighat to learn the Kalighat pata-
though that time no one was making Kalighat pata.
It was during 1989-90 that I asked an elderly patua over there about this.
He told me that the young generations who married here felt embarrassed in introducing themselves as ‘patua’
and that is why they changed their surname to “Pal”.
However, you said that whenever anyone asked them for a painting,
patuas would request them to keep their identity secret in those days?
Yes, since our situation is like this,
we have separate graveyards where patuas are buried,
not in the same burial ground that belongs to Muslims.
As in, for a Muslim, a space for burial in the graveward would be given –
This happens with the Sufis also.
Yes, there is no system of cremation amongst us.
We have a separate graveyard.
That is where the patuas are buried.
We are separate from Muslims.
Usually there is hardly any marriage between Patuas and Muslims.
Recently, one or two cases might be found.
It was at the time when I was working with my uncle
when the festival of Durga Puja was going to be held the following morning,
we were in the final stages of our work, and around midnight,
some people were unsure whether it would be finished today,
one of the artists asked my uncle, “Would it be possible for you to finish the job before tomorrow?
Since the “pujas” will start from tomorrow onwards!”
I asked my uncle, “What is the logic behind this?”
He said, “Once the puja starts no one will allow us to touch anything”.
Did it not hurt you?
Yes, I was terribly hurt.
At that time, I was only around sixteen or seventeen years old.
I said, “Why is it so? When I’ve created it, I’ve given birth to it,
I am the father or mother of the idol
and it is almost like my child.
If the child’s kohl gets smudged, won’t the parents fix it?
Or if anything odd is visible for some reason, is it not the father or mother’s duty to take care of it?
Why would I not be allowed to touch it?”
My uncle told me that is how it was.. We were not allowed.
That is the reason behind the patua’s conversion to Islam, especially in Medinipur, where they got converted en masse
and they follow all the rituals and customs of Islam,
while in Birbhum and Murshidabad a little bit of combination of both religions may be found.
Therefore, certain pujas and rituals are observed there.
This is our social condition.
Are you allowed to enter the Kali temple?
Yes, we were allowed to work sitting on the temple premises.
The situation was not so bad at that time.
We used to observe idol worship in our village temple also
and all of us used to participate even in the immersion procession.
In some places, the secretary of the Puja committee was from the Muslim community.
Now the situation is changing; it is gradually worsening.
Earlier, the bonding was different, especially in our area –
Both Hindus and Muslims would invite each other to all types of festivals and it is still being maintained.
That practicce is still there.
What about Kalighat?
I can’t say anything about Kalighat.
I didn’t enter the temple, since. I don’t practice any religion.
It does not matter much to me whether it is a temple or a mosque.
I may visit occasionally.
Even today, lower caste Hindus are not allowed to enter the temple premises.
I know about one such village from where one of my students used to come.
There they asked for contributions from people belonging to the lower caste for the construction of a temple;
but when they asked to be allowed to enter the temple, it was denied.
They are still barred from entering the temple and also not allowed at any offerings.
It is still in practice.
That means the system remains the same in spite of income or education. You don’t mind this?
Of course, I feel hurt.
But you still paint?
If not for the images, but for the idols –
participation in the worship aside –
-in fact, we might not be allowed to go too close to the idols of goddesses in pandals
in some places,
whereas, in some places we are allowed to.
This means discrimination still exists.
Yes, it is still in practice mainly in the rural areas.
Perhaps, it has decreased in the urban areas.
However, the issue of polluting contact or touch does not exist anymore.
Till the last generation, it did.. Now, its far lesser in comparison.
Is there any pata which is your specialty?
I have done scrolls with new themes;
similarly, I have added some of my new ideas and thoughts, observations on day to day life on the pata also.
This is because, patas began with the images of gods and goddess in the case of Kalighat.
But themes like “Babu/Bibi” followed by the incident of “Elokeshi-Nabin” began to be included later on.
It keeps changing over time.
When I started out, I began by copying many old patas and I need to do that even now.
I usually adopt my own style and my own thinkin that is very modern and probably because of that
my paintings were able to reach the. Victoria and Albert Museum in London.
I have also organized exhibitions of my own paintings.
My paintings have travelled to different museums in the world –
National Museum at Liverpool,
the Museum of Civilization in Canada,
ISKCON’s museum in Belgium,
Museum of Sacred Art,
the National Gallery of Modern Art in Delhi,
and a number of places.
People seem to like my style and thoughts and maybe it has become acceptable.
You also travel a lot?
Yes.
You also get invitations from different places?
No. Not so lucky to visit all the places.
I have only been to the USA and Canada.
I got another chance after that.
But I couldn’t avail the opportunity because of the worldwide economic recession at the time.
However, I have been to Australia and also to a number of museums for work.
You have been to Australia; so did you collaborate with any folk artists there?
No. It did not happen.
But I have seen them in the. National Crafts Museum in Delhi,
of which Dr. Jyotindra Jain was the Director at that time.
Incidentally, I must tell you that Dr. Jyotindra has curated all my shows there.
This time an exhibition will be held in Kochi where an exhibition of my paintings will also be held.
I have seen the late Janagar Shimsham, an early painter, working with Aboriginal Australians.
Although I was not involved in it, I have seen it happen.
I have heard that some people have stopped painting in places due to financiall constraints,
but especially those who have converted to (puritan) Islam are not doing it anymore?
It is possible that some people change and become very rigid.
I don’t know how some get brainwashed.
They think, ‘What I used to be in the past and what am I now’,
and this feeling leads them totry to obstruct others as well.
This is just stupidity, nothing else.
This is just religious orthodoxy, just simple stupidity.
Like azaan, which has a melodious tune, and is a song sung every day, this is also a song.
They don’t make idols, as is their custom.
But they draw images of flowers, creepers or leaves.
I think new converts to a religion think of themselves to be greater than older believers.
They end up engaging more in such activities.
Patuas who think of themselves as puritan Muslims, consider themselves above both of these sects.
These are the ones who turn against painting and protest the most.
this is just a hypocritical effort to appease and to increase their acceptability in that particular group.
This means that if they are fully converted, then this mixed state that you mentioned,
between Hindus and Muslims, will cease to exist, right?
Yes, maybe for some people, but no.. It cannot end. It cannot ever leave their psyche –
since, those who come to decorate the puja pandals are Muslims at present.
-Oh!
They still have a deep-seated attachment to these rituals,
because despite having converted, their feelings emerge from their origins.
These people are not Muslims like the ones who came from Arabia.
In fact, those who were castigated as lower castes were the ones who were eventually converted.
This happened because of social oppression by the Brahmins.
Just a while back, I saw a post on Facebook in which a. Brahmin was treading across several shudras
lying on the floor on a religious occasion.
This might be happening either because of the disciples’ obligations to their spiritual leader
or in order to be released from sufferings caused by their sins.
But if anyone among them was my elder brother or father, I would have been definitely angry.
If we think logically, the question arises why should one man walk over others?
I am a rational person; I cannot accept this.
You said that when television was introduced, the traditional purpose of a patua, which was to entertain,
through religious themes, diminished to a great extent.
But nowadays they don’t watch TV either.
Would you like to add anything new to pata -. Do you think their survival is at stake?
I think it is not at all profitable to show or sell them in rural areas.
This has significantly reduced in the rural areas as no one has the time to see pata by putting their mobiles away.
Everyone is in line for devolving into our hunch-backed ancestors, myself included.
I myself get so many work-related messages on my mobile that I am compelled to use it.
Everyone in the villages belonging to my age group, that is, above fifty, are using the mobile phone.
Hence, I feel that there is no further scope for displaying pata in rural areas.
Pata needs to be modified in alternative modes as an artistic product.
So are you thinking of bringing in change in that?
You have pioneered the transformation of the image from pata (old one on as earthen pata) to a wall hanging.
How are you planning to adapt to change at this age?
Yes, there must be a rethinking on the best possible way of enhancing its visual appeal.
It is not the same pata anymore, now it has no further use or creative space in rural areas;
it’s totally urbanized now and, therefore,
The pata has to be made saleable like any other commodity.
Modern art is an example. This might be like those images.
As I learnt about the aboriginals of Australia,
the price of their paintings is much higher than that of modern art.
Yes. As you would have seen, they have incorporated modern objects in their art.
But in the case of paintings, the price is very high. We tourists cannot afford them.
So what they do is they paint on T-shirts.
Yes, nowadays patuas also paint on T-shirts, umbrellas, hand fans, saris, etc.
Like souvenirs?
Yes, scarves even. They are painting on everything.
I have also received offers for making them but I don’t do it as my paintings are sent to a number of places.
Hence, painting on other objects in which I have to invest my time and which
after some days, will get spoilt, is not my choice.
But for those whose only means of livelihood is this need to do it; they need to do it for their survival.
If you go in for copyright for your paintings?
There are problems in obtaining a copyright.. My paintings have often been copied.
I had spoken about it to Dr. Jyotindra, who said that copyright is possible for any writing or for poetry
where every line, full stop or commas can be accounted for.. Copyright is best suited for written media like books.
Suppose I make a painting based on my thoughts or ideas,
someone else might also draw a similar one with a little addition or alteration.
In that case, it can’t be called a copy.
But for aboriginal paintings it has happened.
Has it, now?
Yes, this happened. Suppose one cannot afford to buy an original painting of aboriginals.
But a copy of the same painting is available as a souvenir costing around ten dollars.
Yes, it can be done in this manner.
But that is not that practice here.
It has been done basically for the purpose of preservation.
If there is a modern artist with a good body of work,
starts copying aboriginal artwork;
and his copies sell at prices at par with that of aboriginal art,
To prevent this, it has been decreed that aboriginal art for profit cannot be done by anyone else.
Similarly, it must be mandated that patachitra should be done by the patuas alone,
Kalighat and other pata forms, can only be made by patuas,
and that someone in Hyderabad wouldn’t be allowed to make traditional pata artwork.
But how do you do this at an individual level?. You are a collective. Copy is only for individual works.
Yes, it is difficult.
Say, someone were to draw a ‘Babu pata’ and another person were to draw a Babu pata with a hookah in
one hand and a flower in the other.
That little difference will make it a different painting altogether.
I think it cannot be claimed that the ‘Babu pata’ was exactly copied in this case.
So the individual claim for copyright cannot be obtained, because it is a collective.
Yes, I also feel that.
I had asked Dr. Jyotindra –
he also told me that, for example, one could copy someone’s poem
and publish it in their name,
in that situation it is essential to have a copyright for that reason.
In the case of a poem, a word, or a letter can be copied exactly.
But, in the case of a painting, one could change the hand’s position; hence, you cannot call it a copy.
Therefore I think this is a difficult issue.
What can be done is that as patuas are painting a particular kind of image,
no other community should be allowed to do the same.
Similarly, Madhubani painting should be done only by the community who has been traditionally involved with it.
The same should hold for aboriginals.
This, I feel, can be an alternative to copyright; otherwise the claim for copyright is not possible.
If you could tell us something about your paintings which are special,
they could be downloaded from your website.
Yes, I will send them.
There are some paintings which are acclaimed worldwide. I could send you those.
There are some, which cannot be explained, unless I show them myself.
For example, there is a painting on intolerance which shows a mirror with a reflection and a man fighting with his own shadow.
It is just like a mirror showing that we are fighting with one other.
It signifies the conflict between. Hindu and Muslims in recent times,
in the political space.
This is because we were the same in the past
as I told you already –
because the Muslims who live here are all converted Muslims.
They are still Hindu in their mindset
and this is why they would participate in festivals or pujas.
Their participation in idol immersion would possibly be banned in the coming days.
Such war/conflict is a shadow war, the mirror’s reflection.
It’s just a mirror image of the present politico-social system which, like a vulture,
is manipulating the in-fighting between us for its vested interests.
It shows a vulture on top of a tiger.
The tiger itself symbolizes intolerance.
Because if we are defeated, the tiger will eat us and it will kill us even if we win.
Fighting always takes place in which people from both sides are killed, like it happens during riots.
These are some of the few works of mine.
Can you send us some of those as well?
Yes, I can do that.
Then there’s my representation of woman power,
which is slightly different.
She has a lot of tigers on her body, which depicts a woman’s strength.
I intended to show that women are doing all sorts of chores just like my mother, daughters, who are
involved in domestic duties,
take care of children, give birth
work in the office, cook.
The truth of the matter is :
I return from the office, wash my hands, and eat.
But when a woman returns from work, she has to cook her own meal.
My painting was created to show my respect to them for their immense strength.
I will send you these paintings.
After reviving this art form,
through changes in the subject matter from time to time,. I have reached a space where I can compose new scrolls.
I have a few scrolls which I had painted earlier.
I will send them all. There are paintings on Rabindranath Tagore,
and also probably on the dowry system.
What about your writing of songs?
I have written many songs.
But those also need to be recorded at some point, unless you have some you can send us?
There might be a few. I’ll send you the recordings.
I have never sung other than for this art.
I’ve composed songs and I can also sing a little.
I even have to, in various places.
Many thanks to you. If you could trace the pata in a chronological order, the people watching the video would be able to situate it in terms of history.
You gave a lot of your time with us, after such a long workshop.
If you could situate the patas through history in a chronological order for the viewers,
They were usually drawn on the Kalighat temple’s grounds.
The image of Shiva-Durga is a very popular theme not only in scrolls but also in the Kalighat painting.
There is a scroll with a very humorous story.
It shows that Durga’s bangles have broken
and she asked Shiva for new ones.
But Shiva was drunk with bhang, and unemployed as well.
He told her to go to her father’s house and get them from him.
I don’t have any money for bangles.
Both husband and wife quarrel over this issue.
As a consequence, Durga left with her child for her father’s place.
In this story, Shiv-Durga are clearly a god-goddess,
But in the eyes of a folk artist,
they are just like his/her neighbours.
And his/her poor neighbor’s condition that is similar to that of Shiva-Durga.
The situation is such for the artists that they have financial scarcity, the husband and wife quarrel,
And the wife takes the child and leaves the house for her paternal abode.
Coming back to the story,
While walking down the road, Narada met her
and asked her, ‘Auntie, where are you going?’
Durga replied, ‘Your uncle is unable to buy me bangles;
hence I am going to my parental home leaving everything behind’
Narada said, ‘Hold on. I’m going to take care of everything’,
and he went over to Shiva.
Shiva asked, ‘Where are your aunt and the others?. She got angry at me and left. Get them back here.’
Narada said, ‘She is not ready to come back, but you can meet her.’
‘How?’, asked Shiva.
‘Disguise yourself as a tiger’, Narada suggested.
Many times in a state of crisis, common sense does not prevail.
So, Shiva took the guise of a tiger very quickly and went forward.
On seeing the tiger, Durga told her kids,
‘What are you afraid of?
We now have a vehicle to go to your uncle’s place (my paternal home).’
As mythologically, the tiger is her verhicle.
When she proceeded to mount the tiger,. Shiva, disguised as the tiger, ran away.
Shiva then told Narada, ‘You gave me a great suggestion, nephew!
(sarcastically) Your aunt was just about to climb on my back’.
Narada then suggested that he adopt the guise of a bangle-seller.
On seeing the seller, Durga came out of the house,
and the seller made her wear conch-shell bangles while chanting mantras.
Durga, then, asked about the price of those bangles.
Shiva, the conch bangle-seller, replied, ‘No payment is necessary. I just want to stay over here tonight.’
Durga grew furious and cursed him.. But none of the curses seemed to work.
Then, she began to meditate and figured out that it was Shiva who was present there.
In disguise.
And this is how they got united again.
This is a very humorous picture.
This is a traditional painting, but it has been composed by me.
This is not old, the theme and compsition are all mine
That was traditional paper; this one is on a better-quality paper as these days samples are being sent to museums.
They are dancing. This is a modern piece?
Yes.
What is this about?
This is on the Babu culture,
about their drinking habits and visits to dancers.
It is because they had started imitating the English.
How do you market your artwork?
How do you sell your paintings?
When I am talking one on one to my customers,
the way I am talking directly to you right now,
I have to estimate the maximum price s/he can afford.
Even then, it involves so much bargaining that it becomes difficult to deal with.
On the other hand, when the same pictures that are sent to the gallery,
things that I might have failed to sell for Rs. 10-15,000
are sold at Rs.60,000 without any bargaining,
which is divided equally between them and me.
They give you 50 percent? – Yes, they do.
That’s nice! -Yes, it is.
So how much do you earn in a year?
Not to pry, of course.
-No no, that’s alright.
Annually,
I have a regular job; so, I do this as a pastime.
Even then, I earn about 3-5 lakhs per annum.
As everything directly comes to my bank account, I have to pay taxes.
If you had painted full-time, would that have been sufficient to maintain your family?
With only painting, yes. I would have been able to devote 8 hours for this then and that might have been sufficient.
That’s right, but you are very well known –
Yes, but it’s not this way for everyone. It is difficult.
You have networks, how important is that?
Networks are important.
Also, maybe because I have a job,
I have been able to set and fix the prices for my paintings and have established a market.
Had this not been the case,
what I am selling at Rs 10-15,000 now
I might have had to sell at 5000 or 4000 or even 3000.
Did your networking start from the time when you held the workshop in 1987?
Yes, around 1987-1992.
If I hadn’t joined the job after 1992, there wouldn’t have been any problem.
I could have focused only on painting and it could have been better.
I couldn’t really focus on it because of my job.
But I could also support my art because I had a job.
Who, in your network, does the marketing?
Gallery owners, museum owners?
Like I said, mostly gallery owners.
Mostly gallery owners.
There are also middlemen.
Some of them exploit us a lot,
while others also respect the artist.
I know one or two of the latter kind who sell the pictures on my behalf.
Do NGOs support you?
No, I haven’t received any help from them.
I haven’t received any help from any NGO.
One or two women from Delhi,
Minhaj Majumdar, an ex-journalist, for instance –
she arranges the sale of a few pieces at times.
She has also arranged for the exhibition of a few pieces in Australia over the last one or two years.
She is very reliable and keeps a minimum margin on sales.
For instance, a profit of Rs. 20,000 on a picture that sells for Rs. 80,000 or Rs. 1 lakh.
Unlike other places that might take away half of the price,
that doesn’t happen in her case.
Her name is Minhaj Majumdar.
And the government doesn’t help you either?
No, they don’t. For instance, the Victoria Albert Museum-
Help from Didi?
No, nothing as such.
But I heard that Biswa Bangla is doing something?
Yes, they are doing something.
But I am not in touch with them.
Once I had given them two or three pictures.
The payment came late, but it did come.
But you won’t get that kind of a price there.
No.
How did you get to know the gallery owners?
Once I told Dr. Jyotindra Jain when I was painting early on,
that I would like to have an exhibition for modern artists.
Nothing as good happens for patuas usually.
He said that if I can do good work, it can be done.
Then I started with my modern works, beginning with 9/11.
I showed it to him and he was happy.
After I had made many such paintings,
he took me to a gallery.
While in the car, he said, that if this gallery agrees, it would be great, else we’ll start from abroad.
He was very confident about my work.
He was very happy with my work.
There’s a gallery there in the New Friends Colony.
He went there, and, then, the exhibition took place there eventually.
All my paintings got sold even before the opening – this was in 2004.
That venue was called Gallery Space and was run by Renu Modi.
Then there was a second exhibition and a few more here and there;
all went well.
Maybe they were not as successful as the first one, but, nonetheless, they went well.
But this is only for famous artists, right?. The unknown ones do not get such an opportunity.
Yes. If Dr. Jyotindra Jain hadn’t been there,
I couldn’t have approached them for an exhibition all by myself.
I wouldn’t have been that successful.
So, their role is very important? -Yes.
What if you make your own website?
I haven’t done that, but recently I have sold my paintings on WhatsApp and Facebook as well.
Really?
Yes. For instance, if I upload something on Facebook these days,
somebody asks me the price.
Two such instances have occurred.
If I said that the price was Rs. 80,000 or Rs. 60,000, they agreed to that, and there was no bargaining.
So that holds a future? – Yes
Because then people from overseas can buy them. – Yes.