Transcript
Interviewer: What is your name?
My name is Manimala.
How long have you been here?
(smiles) I was born here and have been here since then.
Who is the senior most member in your family?
Senior most, means the youngest?
No, who is the eldest?
I am the eldest.
Tell us something about your childhood.
What I remember of my childhood – is that since pata is a traditional family vocation,
I would cry inconsolably if I was not allowed to do pata.
I would ask for paper, colours and brush; I would draw as well.
(Pointing to the window) All of these places were then mere ponds/puddles with water lilies blooming in them.
So, as children, we would swim there, pull out the lilies and make floral ornaments out of them.
(Short pause) I was very fond of singing.
There used to be loudspeakers/megaphones attached to trees playing songs whenever an important event was held.
I could not hear those songs from below because of all the commotion around me. I felt that the noise was too much.
Which is why I used to climb on the trees to listen to the songs (laughs)
I would accompany my grandpa, Dukhushyam Chitrakar, would go from house to house, to perform our songs.
Patas were not sold then.
We were paid in kind – sometimes rice, vegetables, etc.
That is how our family survived.
No one bought patas.
So my grandfather would have to earn his livelihood by singing songs.
And I would tag along with him because I loved to sing.
I would even copy his dressing style – a cotton towel on the head tied as a turban and another around my waist (smiles).
I used to go around villages with my grandfather like this.
I had a dream of becoming a good singer.
Those were the days of the radio.
We didn’t have a television.
I would ask my grandpa, “Who is this singing?”
And if my grandpa mentioned the name of a deceased artist, I would be shocked by the idea that the person, though dead,
could still be heard on the radio!
Since then, I really became interested in becoming a radio singer, so my songs would play on radio even after my death.
That was what my heart wanted at the time.
Now, one can see many aeroplanes flying overhead.
But, in those days, there were not too many aeroplanes.. I could see one or two flying above our heads.
I would get scared and cling to my grandma and she would console me saying,
“There’s nothing to be afraid of, there are people inside”.
After the plane would fly away, I would say, ”Someday, I will also fly in that because
there is no traffic, no tree, so there is no chance of any collision!” (smiles)
Now so many buses are plying and goats, cows are also moving on the road at the same time.
Though, at that time, there were very few buses.
You know, I used to be very scared of boarding a bus because it could hit a tree or a goat or fall into a lake.
At the same time, I had set my sights on the sky.
Since there were no trees up in the sky, I wanted to fly in a plane.
So, my grandma would say, “Yeah sure, grow up, some day you will.”
I was very curious as a child.
Whenever I went out with my grandma, I would keep asking, “What is this?”
I used to talk a lot! (laughs). And my grandma would be angry with me.
One time what happened was that a foreigner gentleman came to our village looking for my grandpa from Kolkata.
He was coming from a programme held there and he listened to and recorded our songs.
So, at night, when I was lying next to my grandfather, I asked him, what was that man doing.
My grandfather said he had been recording our videos and would be able to see us wherever they go.
I became excited. “We will be seen?”. He said yes.
I told my grandfather that I wanted to sing more so that they could video record my songs and see me.
Eventually, we started to carry patas to exhibit and sell in the local fairs.
But those were big scrolls and customers suggested that we make smaller ones.
It was then that my grandfather began making smaller patas and we would take those to fairs.
Gradually people started buying the small patas and that is how the practice of selling patachitra began
Those days fairs would be held in the Science City Grounds for a few years and, even before that, around the
Rabindra Sadan area, near the Maidan.
There used to be government sponsored and/or private events where we would go and exhibit our art and slowly now we have
reached the position where I can also compose songs apart from painting pata art.
I went to the Brown University in Boston in the year 2005;
then, in the year 2006, I went to New Zealand; then I went to Auckland after 7 days.
It was around one and a half hours flight from New Zealand.
I also went to Thailand in 2007.
I got a call to go to Switzerland but my visa could not be processed and thus I could not travel.
As a result, I was very tense.. I couldn’t get out of bed for a month.
I used to hear about people going to Switzerland for their honeymoon,
and I was excited that I would be going there with my artwork…and I would be able to see the place.
But unfortunately for the visa…I could not make the trip and was very stressed and upset.
My family consoled me and I recovered slowly.
Then, in 2010, I went to London; there I exhibited my art for 15 days and, in Liverpool also, I worked for 15 days.
In total, I stayed for a month.
After this, in 2011, I went to Lithuania.
That is also a beautiful place.
Then I keep going to Delhi, Mumbai etc.
(laughs)
Okay, so we will talk about your world tours but prior to that something more of your childhood –
Since when have you been involved with this business?
Since childhood.
Is it like your traditional family business?
Yes, it is absolutely.
Is there anything you can tell us about your grandfather?
Yes, sure.
See earlier in those days, women were not allowed to go out.
Only men were allowed.
As I used to move around with my grandfather and draw pictures, I used to be scolded.
Then, since I used to paint, my mother and grandmother would be upset with me and scold me for painting or going out
I would still do it.
There was an old house which was my secret hideaway where I would go with my colours, brush and paper and paint there.
Then, I was about nine or nine and a half years old, may be, ten years or so.
I would hide away there, and paint my heart out, because I wasn’t allowed to.
In fact, no woman was allowed to draw.
To be honest, now there are my mother, aunts…
but, among the women Gouri Chitrakar of Ghatal,. Daspur, was the first female artist from here;
after her I was the only one.
Though I am younger, there are other women who are older than me and do the same work.
But it has been only 10 years or so since they have started painting.
I am the first woman from my Pingla who has been doing this for a really long time and, definitely, I had to face a lot
of hurdles due to that.
I was severely criticized; I was ostracized by my neighbours- just because they did not want a girl to study
or do this art.
But I did not pay heed to them because I would hear my grandma telling me stories of Matangini Hazra
and her valour- how she kept going in spite of repeated firing, carrying the flag with her.
This inspired me to keep going.
I felt as if I was Matangini Hazra herself.. If she kept going, why should I back down?
I thought if she, being a woman, could go on, why not me?
If they beat me up, I might die.
What else was there? But I wouldn’t back down.
If someone speaks against me, let them.
That’s okay but I’ll not turn back.
My grandma used to say, if an elephant walks on the road, there are many dogs which bark at the elephant
but the elephant does not care to turn back and see.
Why, you know?
Because elephant knows that if he looks back, he can throw the dog off with his trunk.
Similarly, she used to say, “There might be people who might say many things but ignore them. If you think you are
taking a road which is safe, good for you and will take you to a place of renown,
take it and reach the destination.
My grandma isn’t with us anymore but I still remember her words.
However, our present Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee, awarded me with the ‘Sangeet Samman’.
(shows the trophy)
I participated in TV shows like ‘Didi No.1’, ‘Rojgere Ginni’.
I also did shows with Keya Seth, Indrani Halder.
I hope you have heard of Bhopal’s ‘Indira Gandhi National. Museum’- it’s a big museum – I have been there, too.
I got this there.(shows her memento)
So, whatever I have achieved is owing to God’s grace.
I have achieved all of this due to several elderly and young people’s love and appreciation, I am highly regarded
and earn well.
Can we not listen to a song by you?
Yes.
Surely I will.
This is about afforestation.
Trees, if cut, need to be planted, too.
Trees give us oxygen, fruits, juice like from sugarcane/coconut.
So, it’s about the importance of plants.
Should I start?
“Let all together plant trees”
O, Human beings
“Let us all take an oath to plant trees,
“Let us all take an oath to plant trees,
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to plant trees.
Trees when planted near our houses
benefit humans in many ways
Trees when planted near our houses
benefit humans in many ways
Trees give us oxygen
That is the duty of trees
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to plant trees
Let us all take an oath to plant trees
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to plant trees
If plants grow near ponds
Fishes breed nine times more;
If plants grow near ponds
Fishes breed nine times more;
Plants hold on to the soil
Thus, there is no erosion
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
The palm tree gives us its fruit
We get jaggery and sugar candy.
The palm tree gives us its fruit
We get jaggery and sugar candy
There’s no substitute to the benefits,
All of them are needed equally
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
The coconut tree provides us with many benefits
We use coconut in many ways
The coconut tree helps us in many ways
We use coconut in many ways
We get coconut water
Which is poured on the Almighty Shiva
As per the Shastras
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
We get medicines from plants
The ultimatum for life and death
We get medicines from plants
The ultimatum for life and death
We get Ayurveda for everyone from plants
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
If trees are planted by the road
It helps human beings
If trees are planted by the road
It helps human beings
If one needs to cook by the road,
We do need plants for firewood
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
There are no plants in deserts
There is no agriculture
There are no plants in deserts
There is no agriculture
Human beings can’t travel
Camels are the carriers there
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Trees do bear lives
Thus, I ask to plant trees;
Trees do bear lives
Thus, I ask to plant trees;
Let us make a garden everywhere
This is all I plead
O, Human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
This is where I end
My name is Manimala.
This is where I end
My name is Manimala.
This song is about afforestation
Everyone listened to it
O Human beings!
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees, O human beings
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Let us all take an oath to save trees
Thank you.
Is this your own composition?
Yes, it is.
How long does it take to paint such long scrolls?
It depends on the story and accordingly the paintings can go on for 15-20 days, sometimes a month.
What are the subjects?
Is it mythological or modern contemporary?
It can be mythological or on contemporary social issues.
Which one do you like the most?
I like them all.
Mythological patas are essential. Suppose if my grandfather were not there, there would be no father.
If there were no father, I would also not have been born.
So all are needed.
We have to hold on mythological patas, and patas on social issues can only follow that. I like social patas as well.
Patachitra (scroll) is like is a moving picture..
As we need to keep up with the passage of time, both the mythological and social ones are important.
If that is so, which kind have a bigger market?
From the point of view of sales, there are paintings on. T-shirts, kurtas [Panjabi], on saris, dupattas.
If mythological patas are painted on them, people would hesitate to wear them.
It is not right.
An image of Lord Ganesh or Lakshmi perhaps on the front of a t-shirt are acceptable.
T-shirts mostly lend themselves well to patas on Santhal tribals,
and on the marriage of fishes
These are the ones that sell well.
People prefer the square pata because it is convenient to frame and hang on the walls.
However, both sell well.
Some want mythological patas.
Some want social contemporary patas.
All are essential.
To survive in the world, all are required.
One has to remember both the father and the brother.
Do you find any difference in prices between the mythological and contemporary ones?
See, the price of mythological pata has always been high.
Because, the stories on mythology are too long, for example. Manasa Mangal.
The Ramayana, has seven episodes.
Those too, we narrate it in fragments.
If we depict the whole text in one pata, it will be difficult for anyone to afford it.
But the social patas and their songs are composed by us and are of a limited length.
Are the mythological patas, which are very long, still getting attention as those are more costly?
Yes.
They are still around.
Those who know and understand pata, would prefer only those.
But those who are very new to this art, all are equally good for them, both contemporary and mythological ones.
Not that social patas are bad.
However, mythological scrolls are always more expensive.
But the problem is that not all know about the mythological texts.
Like young boys and girls who paint these days, have no knowledge of the songs accompanying the patas, and simply
paint on t-shirts or saris and somehow manage to sell them in the fairs.
It seems to be a business.
But scrolls or patachitras basically hold their worth mainly for their songs.
Here songs mean stories – stories about kings or emperors or. Nawabs and their administration
as there was no police or any judiciaries, all of which have become histories – are subjects of interest for people.
Those who come to interview us listen to these old stories.
But now, suppose the incident of 9/11 – that all of us know about, rather you people know better than us
as you are more connected to newspaper or information from. TV- we cannot see all these and also cannot read newspapers.
We are both aware of recent events. But you might not be aware of old histories nor would have I been.
But I have learnt them from my grandmother; otherwise I would not have known all those.
Therefore, those who come to us to know about scrolls, are interested in knowing mainly mythological stories.
Everyone is aware of the tsunami which occurred in 2004 or a certain train accident that may have occured somewhere.
But they come to us to get to know of the tales of old.
Because all these stories are known only to Patuas. They know the story through the songs, and how to paint them.
If you visit handicraft fairs where various objects with pata representations are available,
you would find kettles with pata paintings.. You would find them on an assortment of things.
But if you were to ask them about the story, they wouldn’t be able to answer.
Therefore, if the songs are lost from memory, the scrolls lose their meaning.
Now patachitra is a form of business.
Suppose someone orders bags with pata art, say hundred pieces.
Even if the price per bag is 100 rupees; they will fetch sufficient amount of money.
For them, the song is not necessary.
Because they feel that for selling mythological pata, one has to wait with patience for a call.
But for real scroll painters/patachitrakars –therefore, those who know the relevance of pata, would ask only for mythological pata.
Suppose, your children are aware of recent incidents but are ignorant about historical facts.
So if you were to collect or preserve pata or books related to history/mythological subjects, they would gain knowledge.
I have donated a photograph of my house to a school with classes from two to four where a picture showing a room of our house full of pata is fixed on the wall.
My grandson goes to that school.
One day he brought a book and asked me, “Nana, is this our room with the picture on sharks?
In it there is one such pata depicting two sharks on both sides and in between my name and phone number are inscribed.
I said, “Yes, it is our house”.
It must have been someone like you – people who came and took the photograph of my house who must have done it.
This has given me immense pleasure.
The children are studying and they come to know about ‘the patua’s house.’ If people like you come and bring it
into focus, it will remain preserved as history for decades.
It will never vanish.
I cannot speak fluently.
Anyway, I am not even well; I was lying down; when you rang me up, I got ready to talk to you.
I might not be able to speak properly.
Sorry about that.
Was there any reason for which you were compelled to make yourself involved in art to resolve the problem?
Yes, of course.
We were squatters on occupied. PWD land as we didn’t own any land.
Only because of patachitra, I we could earn, buy land and build my own house, which
otherwise wouldn’t have been possible.
I wouldn’t even have been able to provide more than one meal for my children
if my situation was similar to that in the past.
This work is really very important.
You know why?
Once I was caught red-handed by a railway ticket collector.
I went to Mangalore; it’s not Bangalore.
The programme was very good.
I was coming back.
The train by which I was supposed to come back was cancelled without any prior intimation.
Since I had a ticket for an express train, I showed it to the station master there who asked me to travel by the superfast one instead.
When I got down at the Howrah station, I showed the ticket.
My son was accompanying me.
The ticket checker said, “You have a ticket for an express train but you have come by a superfast train.
You will have to pay a fine”.
I said why I should pay a fine?
Rather you should give me a fine.
I had the ticket for the cancelled train.
Why have you cancelled that train?
Why did you cancel it?
I was put to so much strain because of this I had to sit for hour after hour, sitting at a stretch for eight hours.
You must pay me the fine.
What nonsense are you talking about?
They said you are going to be arrested.
I said okay.
I am ready to go.
They took me to a room where the TTEs sit.
And they said, “This lady is talking too much. She had the ticket for an express but has come by a superfast train.”
I said “It was in my destiny to come by superfast, so I have come.
If one does hard labour, s/he will be rewarded.
Everyone knows it.
I sat for eight straight hours and came by superfast, so I got the reward.
I had the ticket for an express.. I wasn’t travelling empty-handed.
Ask your administration, why was the train cancelled?
Why was the train cancelled?
They said are you not afraid of talking such a lot?
I replied, “Why should I be afraid of you?
“You are human.
So am I. What should I fear?
Are you a tiger that you will devour me?
If so, then I should have been afraid.
So there is nothing to worry about.”
A female guard is there for women.
They asked her to take me away; she said, “Pay the fine”.
I said, “I won’t pay a single rupee.”
The woman guard took me to a room and searched me thoroughly.
The money is rolled up together with the pata and kept in a large bag.
I keep only the passage money (train fare) with me.
She didn’t get anything. In fact. I never keep any money with me.
I said, “I don’t have money; rather you should pay me so that I can go back to my destination.”
They said “You are very desperate”.
Ultimately they said to their superior, “Sir,
Nothing is available on her, so leave her”.
If I had the money, they would have taken it.
I then said “See, you take away money from anyone you can get hold of.
I don’t take money for nothing.
I take money by pleasing minds.
Would I give you any or would you give me?. Give me a moment and you’ll see.”
I took out the rolls from my bag and then unrolled the scrolls and started to sing.
After completing the song I said, “This is the way I earn money.”
Then some paid me hundred, some fifty rupees.
I said I didn’t have money for my return journey, and they obliged.
I said, “You see, sir. This is how I rob people in broad daylight.”
(laughter)
He said, “It’s alright.
You have so many talents, which we were unaware of”.
Then all of them folded their hands, accepted their mistakes and said, “Please don’t mind.”
I sang my own composition on the. Babri Mosque-Ram Temple issue.
So, patachitra, to be honest
is such a beautiful art form… you see, you have come looking for me only because I practice pata.
It gives me pleasure that I can meet many people because of this art. I have even met you.
People from outside visit to my house which I can tell others about, I can tell that people from Kolkata, Delhi and
Bombay are coming to meet me.
It is a matter of pride.
Had I been engaged in some other profession, it would never have been possible for me to go Delhi and it would not have
been possible even to see Kolkata.
Visiting other countries, flying by aeroplane would have been a distant reality.
That’s why I always pray to God that whenever I am reborn, I must be born only as an artist.
Perhaps I don’t have a lot of money.
But money cannot get you everything.
There are many people who have a lot of wealth
but never get to fly by air even once.
I have travelled many times by air.
When I went to Lithuania, I had to change three flights and also came back the same way,
so I could travel in six different aeroplanes.
(laughs heartily)
I am very happy with the way God has sent me here, I don’t know whether God is happy or not.
Earlier patas were accompanied by songs which were sung from door to door, but now it is composed with the purpose of sale.
No.
So, once it is sold means the song is also lost, don’t you think?
Not at all.
Why would it?
The pata that gets sold, isn’t that the end of the line for it?
Once the pata is sold, another pata with the same subject is made.
You will be taking recording of my songs back.
They will be preserved with you that way, and become a part of history, won’t they?
The songs are not lost at all.
They will live on, even after my death.
You could show or play the audio of this interview for someone else. So, how am I ever going to get lost?
I mean, how are my songs getting lost along the way?. They, in fact are getting immortalized.
One day I heard a song on radio and came to know that the person has already passed away.
I thought that even after death, his song was being listened to and broadcast on television.
I thought that if I could sing on television, my song would never be lost.
And then, I was invited to sing on TV within fifteen days.
I was elated.
In the same way, it was my feeling that if I were also invited to the radio station, I could sing.
Just after a month and a half, I got a call from a radio station to record my song.
That means it can remain for ever, even after my death.. They are getting archived instead of being lost over time.
If I had only sung for you to listen to, then maybe I would have been lost with my songs after my death.
As you are recording my interview, it will remain with you and I will live on even after death..
Do you find any difference in the tunes of the songs?
Has any change in tunes occurred in the present from the earlier ones which you heard in your childhood?
Yes, there is a difference between social narration and mythological pata.
Once I was in Delhi where I sang on Sita’s abduction when; a gentleman said that the tune was based on a Hindi song.
I replied “No.
This tune is totally that of the patuas; rather it must have been copied by the Hindi song later on.
There’s a Hindi song that goes,
“Tuhi meri manjil,”
whatever it is, I don’t know the song –
“tuhi meri puja,
Tuhi mere d–“, I don’t know the Hindi song exactly.
but I know the tune as it is based on our song on Sita’s abduction, which goes like this:
The wedding is over
Ramchandra crossed the river
To keep his father’s promise
Goes into exile.
Ramchandra leads,
Janaki follows
The archer Lakshman follows them both.
The sun is blazing hot
And the sand below is hot too.
Sita was weak like a wax doll
and could not walk any further.
Breaking the branch of a tree
Lakshman kept it over her head
Lakshman asked her to walk slowly
under the shade.
They reached the Panchavati forest
Ram, Lakshman, Sita
You see they are there.
Hence, the tune is not copied from a Hindi song. This is an old tune.
I learnt it from my grandpa. He must have learnt from his grandpa.
This is how it has remained the same – perhaps for the last 2500 years.
Hence, it is not based on a Hindi song’s tune.. This is our own patua tune.
If you notice, you will find a song, probably Putul. Mukhopadhya’s song “Float the Boat” (Dingabhasao),
which is based on our pata about Manasa Mangal.
When Behula returns after saving her husband and her six brothers-in-law, that’s where this song is present.
Then another song, Tyangra fish says, “O boatman! I’ll give you an anna (coin)”, that song?
What is the artist’s name?
Swapan Mukhopadhaya or something like that.
We also have a song about fishes.
They have taken our song and adapted it.
Look how we’ve painted this pata on fishes.. And their palanquin.
They have taken our song and changed it for their use.
Songs for mythology and social issues are a tad bit different from each other.
Shall I sing it for you?
Sure.
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The moon-fish says, “I’ll become an earring.’
O Rangeela!
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The little fishes say, “We shall carry a palanquin, O. Rangeela”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The snake-fish says, “I shall become a bracelet’
O Rangeela!
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The cushion fish says, “I shall become a nose pin”
O Rangeela!
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The prawn says, “I shall play the harmonium
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The carp says, “I play the drum well!
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
All the fishes together say, “We shall go and apply turmeric (on the bride and groom)
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The snakehead fish says, “I shall dress as a Brahmin and go.”
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The catfish says, “I play the flute well!”
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
All the fishes say, “Let’s go together to eat”.
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
The wallago fish says, “I shall eat up all rascals!”
O Rangeela!”
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Let’s go get the Dariya fishes married, O Rangeela
Thank you.
It means that wallago fish did not get an invitation and was about to eat the palanquin.
What is your idea about children?
About whether they should also join this profession?
How involved are they in this art form?
Actually, earlier patachitra was not saleable.
So people used to be in different professions; some used to pull trolleys; some used to work as labourers.
Nowadays, there are many govermental or non-governmental fairs being held in various places.
The children of this new generation, therefore, want to learn and are learning this art form.
They can see how their parents and elders all around are engaged in this, and it is generating interest from abroad.
Hence, they feel good about partaking in this tradition.
They feel that if they can paint well, they would also be able to travel internationally.
Or that people would come from far and wide to see their art.
In recent days, patachitra is also being done to decorate. Durga Puja pandals.
I too went to Medinipur and have just come back yesterday in the evening.
At different places, fairs are organised.
Nowadays, different themes are painted on different items.
They know that it is possible to make a living this way.
They didn’t do it as much before, but now they have started to.
What are your views on the quality of children’s education?
What is the extent of their education?
Education isn’t good.
Since, they are now attracted to go to fairs; their education is not in a good state.
Do you want your children to carry on the pata profession or not?
Yes, I would like them to.
Definitely, they should continue the profession.
And all of them are.
All of my children, three sons and three daughters, all are engaged in pata painting.
Okay. How old are they?
They got married at an early age and have children also.
I too got married very early.
They all paint.
Today they have gone for namaz.
There’s a feast in the mosque, which is why
except one, all have gone there.
What is happening there?
There will be a feast today.
Today there will be namaz.
They will help in cooking, like cutting onions, and potatoes.
If any one of your kin or anyone gets educated or chooses a profession other than pata, what would be the situation?
It depends on their own interests.
If someone is not interested, it will be difficult to carry on.
In that case, he or she should move in that direction which interests them.
All of you belong to the Islam religion.
Yes.
Would you please give us some idea of the Hindu mythological patachitra practice in relation to religion?
Actually, from what I have heard from my grandfather,
patuas were of the order of criminal intelligence officers in society.
They were known as the detective officers under the reign of the king.
Even so, they belonged to the highest category in the caste system, even above Brahmins;
they basically belonged to the traditional religion (Sanatan).
They were the only people who were allowed to enter the king’s house.
Also,
After a child’s birth, patuas were invited to christen the new born in the king’s family.
See, it is like Sri Chaitanya (Nemai), was neglected by. Vaishnavites and Brahmins and was pelted by stones.
That was despite his Hindu religious heritage.
The patuas, at that time, used to draw the eyes of Goddess deity during the Durga Puja.
In fact, it has become a custom, which might be wrong or right.
The brushes that we use, if they are kept uncared for after their use, their puff hairs would be scattered.
Hence, to smoothen the puff hairs, the brush is inserted into the mouth because the saliva of the tongue
is like adhesive;
it is very effective in keeping the brush in a proper shape.
But, one day, a Brahmin saw this and informed the King that you love the patuas, but their practices are not good.
They are not good people.
They use the brush for drawing the deity’s eyes that are touched by their mouth.
That’s not right.
In fact now in towns, no one cares; they even place dishes on their laps.
But, in the rural areas, people used to follow these taboos very strictly.
During that period, everyone used to maintain customs like not eating food seated on the bed,
clothes were not to be touched with food.
After a meal, the dining area should be cleaned with cow dung.
Hindus still follow this custom here in our village.
They maintain it very strictly.
They would not place the dish on their laps, they would sit on the floor on designated seats.
After having eaten, the place would be cleaned with cloth and cow dung.
We now don’t follow these practices.
But the Hindus did.
When he thought that they were drawing his deities using their saliva and making them impure, it made the king angry.
The Brahmins and Vaishnavites found that they were unable to oust the Patuas despite the incident.
Because the patuas had explained the issue of the brushes and their rationale to them, and that was that.
The patuas then switched over to a different subject like ‘Shiva’s farming legend’
They painted and composed a song on it.
where the deity is depicted not with a trident but with a sickle and a spade.
This again infuriated the Brahmins who, in turn, antagonised the king by saying that if they could change Lord Shiva,
the day might not be far when they would bring him down from his high position.
The king was persuaded to evict the patua community and ultimately drive them out of his kingdom.
The patuas were disappointed with this.. They asked the king what their fault was.
The king said, “There is nothing more to be said. You leave this place.
When you can bringing Shiva himself to the ground, who knows what you would do with me.”
The dejected patuas then left that kingdom.
While they were travelling in search of an alternative shelter, it came to the notice of a Nawab who was riding on a horse.
The patuas were moving in groups towards an unknown destination.
He noticed the people, along with their children, (as everyone at that time used to have 8-9 children each),
and their chickens, their goats and cattle that they had reared.
moving in a large group and asked them about their whereabouts.
Hearing their story, he generously offered them shelter in his region.
He welcomed the patuas and also asked them to compose songs on such subjects
which would maintain harmony among Hindu and Muslims so that there wouldn’t be any riots between Hindus and Muslims,
and sing them from village to village.
The Nawab was a very good person.
He used to love Hindus as his fathers and brothers, as his source of power of wealth too.
He bore no prejudice in his heart with respect to religion.. He believed we were all humans first.
That is why the patuas made a song on Satyapir– “He who is the Pir, he is the Narayan”
The song goes like:
Where you are Satyapir,
Remembering you
Without you we are nowhere.
Narayan you are among Hindus,
Pir among Muslims
With prayers from both our clans,
You have emerged.
They composed this and started singing this across villages.
So the Nawab ordered us to practice Islam.
Otherwise we wouldn’t get refuge anywhere.
Nowadays, nobody enquires about one’s religion.
People follow whatever religion they want to.
Somebody takes up Christianity because they want to.
Some become Brahmins.
Some become Muslim.
It wasn’t there previously.
You had to follow a religion, else you’d be killed.
So then the Nawab told the patuas to adopt his religion and thrive.
Since then, the patuas follow Islam.
It was difficult then – you had to survive.
The situation was such – there weren’t that many people around.
There was nobody to protect us.
So whatever the Nawab said – you can call him our food-giver as well as our life-giver-
He didn’t kill us.
He didn’t take away our life, but we are the walking dead now.
Because we were so respected in society, the king used to love us a lot.
So, we need to survive.
That’s why patuas know every religion.
We have more knowledge about Hinduism than the Hindus themselves.
Not many people know this history.
There are lots of patuas around, but not many know these histories.
A lot of students study in schools, but does every one of them pass?
They do not.
Similarly, a lot of people have learnt from my grandfather, but not everyone remembers.
Not everyone remembers.
They can’t remember.
I try to remember all the nice and relevant stories, because it’s necessary to remember them.
I don’t remember irrelevant details.
In from one end, out the other.
I have a memory card inside my head, just like you have one inside your camera.
I have loaded it.
Was there any religious pressure on your work?
Yes,
My goodness!.
It was severe, not only on our profession; pressure has been severe since the time I was a child.
Now I am 46 years old.
When I was around 20-21 years old, we were cursed by taunted by Hindus as being neither Hindu nor Muslim.
It was said in a manner of ridicule.
They said, “They consume both living and non-living beings.”
Even Muslims did the same.
We never stopped our work.
Muslims also used to cast aspersions on us stating that we were neither Hindu nor Muslims, because of our work.
They eat both the living and the non-living and not include us.
By the living it means Muslims eat live animals only after “slaughtering”.
They used to think that we eat dead and living as well.
Even Muslims of this area say, “What kind of people are these?
They do artwork, they draw pata, so they are Hindu.
Shame! Shame! Shame!”. Yes!
They said, “One should not visit their homes, should not speak to them.”
However, Hindus would not make any such comment as we were drawing Hindu gods and goddesses.
And at the end of the day, we would be visiting them to show our patas.
It is not that they accepted us, they also maintained a distance.
They also treated us differently, like when we were supposed to sit down to eat in their houses;
they didn’t serve the food within their premises, inside their houses.
They used to tell us, “Let’s go to the farm” and spreading a gunny sack for us to sit on.
When serving the food, they used to wrap their clothes around themselves tightly, so that there was
no bodily contact with us as we are Muslims.
But we go on showing pata.
It was difficult to state what our condition was, impossible to define.
Since in the last twenty to twenty-five years, the situation changed slowly, when they saw that the people from
other countries started coming,
people from many big places started coming to their homes, from Mumbai, Delhi,
they began to feel that we people have a special status.
Gradually when they started witnessing our foreign fanfare.
Now Muslims love us and Hindus also love us equally.
Now they take food even in our homes.
But, at that time, it was so difficult that we could not even come and stand on the culvert.
It was really a great problem.
Suppose if the situation had been much worse, had there been pressure on you people to quit the art,
what sort of livelihood would you have chosen?
Yes, there was a situation like this.
But we never stopped.
But we never stopped.
We said, “You are Muslims, you remain Muslim.
Okay.
We are Muslims too, we consume living and non-living as well.
We will be like this.
But we will continue with our art.
We will not abandon that.
You may not allow us amongst you”.
They didn’t allow us to pray in the mosque.
There is a mosque nearby.
“These people draw pata, they draw Hindu’s gods and goddesses, they can’t be allowed to enter the mosque”.
Our males were not even allowed – even once a year – to enter the local mosque here.
There was a tremendous pressure on us as we draw Hindu gods.
Our people used to sit outside the mosque to offer namaz.
Suppose there were 20 men in our neighbourhood.. They formed their own jamaat for prayer.
Once I had gone to a textile shop here itself.
The owner said, “So, Manimala di”… they usually say ‘Mani di’.
“Oh! Mani di, why do not you leave patachitra?”
Leave it.
He asked me to stop painting and start practising religion.
“You better chant the name of Allah.”
I said, “If I utter Allah! Allah! Would you provide me with food?
That is the shop selling fabrics under the rain tree opposite my house.
If you look hard, you can see the shop right from here.
I said, “If I utter Allah! Allah! Would you provide me with food?
He said, “Why would food not be given?
We are chanting the name of Allah!. We are okay.”
I said, “Everything is alright with chanting Allah’s name,
but you sell fabrics.
Do you sell at the same prices at which you buy?
Muslims are not supposed to charge any interest.
But you buy fabric at 500 rupees and sell it at 1200 rupees.
So you are making a profit.
Would Allah still forgive you?”
Then he said, “Shame, shame! You are painting pictures of. Hindus.”
I said, “Why do you keep repeating Hindu, Hindu?
How about you fix a signboard on your shop and write on that ‘Except Muslims, no other castes shall buy from my shop.’
When you die, you will be buried in a shroud purchased from. Hindu money, because you sell mainly to Hindus.
How many of your customers are Muslim?
Do only Muslims buy from you not Hindus?
There is a Lodha slum, Lodhas purchase, even tribals, buy from your shop.
So you survive on all their money.
Therefore, what type of Muslim are you?
You come to the point, otherwise I would go on arguing.
I won’t argue unnecessarily.
God has blessed us with hands, legs, eyes; has created us.
I feel that God has gifted me this art which is why I can draw.
You also show me an artwork.. God has created you too.
If you talk about God, God has given me this creative power, so I do it.
You also show me an artwork of your own.
God has created you too, right?. That means to you, He has not given you this art.
But has commanded you to buy the clothes and only sell them and you do that.
It sounds harsh.
But because of the way you spoke to me, I had to respond in such a manner”, I told him.
He said, “You are only arguing. No one can go on arguing with you.”
I said “Yes, I am arguing with logic, nothing illogical.
Please make me understand that. If I were to leave painting pata, would you feed me?
If not, will I go in for any other business? At this old age?
As you are doing business from the beginning, you can continue to do so.
I have been practicing this art from the beginning, why should I leave it?
If I leave this, would you give me food?. No, you wouldn’t.”
I also said, “Since I do pata I will go to hell and you are not doing pata, so you will be sent to heaven?
Are you confident that you will go to heaven or hell?
Do you know how many good or bad deeds you have done?
Probably as you keep going abroad, they feel this way.
No.
Nothing like that.
Yes, I keep going to various places both within the country and outside, but that’s not the issue.
“Do you know how many sins you have committed and whether you would be sent to heaven or hell?
“If you say, yes, then you must be God.
Then you should not be in this mortal world, you should be in the upper world, in heaven.”
I argue in this manner.
(chuckles)
We will not leave pata; it is our life.
Many people have asked me, I said that “See, I am not sure how much I love my son, daughter, husband;
but I know that patachitra is my fiancé, my love, and everything.
It is my prayer, my hymn.
You can call it whatever you like.
I love it so much.
I love my patachitra more than myself.
I pray to God, “As many rebirths I have, I must be born only as an artist.”